Who is the least accomplished all time great?

[Xiao Yao You]

Okay well if we are talking longevity then sure it goes to Stockton, and yes I do value longevity because it also means consistency. But I am talking primes. I can't just hold it against those guys because they got injured. They were great players too.

I'm not saying Price was better than Stockton, I'm just saying he belonged in the same discussion when they were both in their primes. If someone tried to make the case for Price I couldn't really be mad. He was arguably the best shooter in the league and he was also a better slasher.

And this isn't to bash Stockton, but it highlights how overrated he's become, as great as he was. He wasn't "peerless" at his position at any point in his career.

why can't you hold it against them? Stockton took care of his body and played through injuries. He only missed 30 games after micro fracture surgery. It ended many a career and he came back pretty much the same player other than his minutes were reduced. Johnson was always hurt. Maybe he should have been in better shape or been tougher? Price was never in the discussion neither were any of the others. Stockton played both ends of the floor and got better every year. Johnson and Hardaway peaked early. Payton was looking like a bust until he finally figured it out. He was nowhere near the shooter or play maker Stockton was. He may have never been peerless but his peers changed every year while he was doing it every year. Career wise there is no discussion

[Baller234]

why can't you hold it against them? Stockton took care of his body and played through injuries. He only missed 30 games after micro fracture surgery. It ended many a career and he came back pretty much the same player other than his minutes were reduced. Johnson was always hurt. Maybe he should have been in better shape or been tougher? Price was never in the discussion neither were any of the others. Stockton played both ends of the floor and got better every year. Johnson and Hardaway peaked early. Payton was looking like a bust until he finally figured it out. He was nowhere near the shooter or play maker Stockton was. He may have never been peerless but his peers changed every year while he was doing it every year. Career wise there is no discussion

You keep saying that these guys were never in the discussion but you're only saying that now 25-30 years later in hindsight. At the time believe me it wasn't so clear cut.

I'm not one to put much faith in media awards, but in 1992-93 Mark Price was All-NBA 1st team and Stockton was 2nd team. So yea at the very least it proves that, during that time, he was absolutely being debated in the same discussion.

When it comes to injuries, some guys are lucky and some aren't.

[Xiao Yao You]

You keep saying that these guys were never in the discussion but you're only saying that now 25-30 years later in hindsight. At the time believe me it wasn't so clear cut.

I'm not one to put much faith in media awards, but in 1992-93 Mark Price was All-NBA 1st team and Stockton was 2nd team. So yea at the very least it proves that, during that time, he was absolutely being debated in the same discussion.

When it comes to injuries, some guys are lucky and some aren't.

I was saying it all along. Price was on a better team. As far as injuries you make your own luck. Being one of the toughest and best conditioned athletes ever had nothing to do with Stockton's longevity? I'm sure Donic will be bringing it when he's 40 too!

[Baller234]

I was saying it all along. Price was on a better team. As far as injuries you make your own luck. Being one of the toughest and best conditioned athletes ever had nothing to do with Stockton's longevity? I'm sure Donic will be bringing it when he's 40 too!

Maybe he will, a lot of guys play until they're 40 these days. Also it's not like Stock didn't age out too. By his last season he was only playing 27 min a game.

I feel like this argument is silly. Obviously Stock was a warrior and that is partly what made him so great, but yes I'm sorry there IS an element of luck when it comes to avoiding serious injury.

I've seen fans put Stockton in the top 15-20 range all time, and I've also seen him anywhere between 2-5 on the all time point guard list. Was he a great player? Absolutely. Could you make the CASE that was he was the best point guard of the 90's? Absolutely. But if you're telling me that the biggest thing that separated him from his peers was "availability", sorry that alone isn't going to cut it for me. That's not a good enough reason to place him that high.

[Xiao Yao You]

Maybe he will, a lot of guys play until they're 40 these days. Also it's not like Stock didn't age out too. By his last season he was only playing 27 min a game.

I feel like this argument is silly. Obviously Stock was a warrior and that is partly what made him so great, but yes I'm sorry there IS an element of luck when it comes to avoiding serious injury.

I've seen fans put Stockton in the top 15-20 range all time, and I've also seen him anywhere between 2-5 on the all time point guard list. Was he a great player? Absolutely. Could you make the CASE that was he was the best point guard of the 90's? Absolutely. But if you're telling me that the biggest thing that separated him from his peers was "availability", sorry that alone isn't going to cut it for me. That's not a good enough reason to place him that high.

not a lot play until they are 40. I said after microfacture surgery his minutes were down. He was pretty much the same player otherwise though. The surgery ended careers for others

You make your own. luck. It's not like Stockton didn't play through injuries. I thought he was done about half way through his career when he sucked in the playoffs. Found out after he retired that he couldn't lift his arm above his shoulder and it's why he looked like a mere mortal that year

The biggest thing wasn't his availability. He was as good as any small pg(I don't compare Magic with any of them) year in and year out while the guys you talk about each had maybe 1 year at his level. He was a two way player which of the guys you mentioned only Payton was. Payton was a better defender and a more willing scorer. Stockton was better at everything else.

[Baller234]

not a lot play until they are 40. I said after microfacture surgery his minutes were down. He was pretty much the same player otherwise though. The surgery ended careers for others

You make your own. luck. It's not like Stockton didn't play through injuries. I thought he was done about half way through his career when he sucked in the playoffs. Found out after he retired that he couldn't lift his arm above his shoulder and it's why he looked like a mere mortal that year

The biggest thing wasn't his availability. He was as good as any small pg(I don't compare Magic with any of them) year in and year out while the guys you talk about each had maybe 1 year at his level. He was a two way player which of the guys you mentioned only Payton was. Payton was a better defender and a more willing scorer. Stockton was better at everything else.

It wasn't just one season though. KJ, Timmy and Price all had multiple seasons of elite play. They are 3x, 4x and 5x all-stars respectively. Timmy and KJ were legit 22 & 10 guys for multiple seasons. Absolute studs. Timmy even finished 4th in MVP voting during his time in Miami.

[Xiao Yao You]

It wasn't just one season though. KJ, Timmy and Price all had multiple seasons of elite play. They are 3x, 4x and 5x all-stars respectively. Timmy and KJ were legit 22 & 10 guys for multiple seasons. Absolute studs. Timmy even finished 4th in MVP voting during his time in Miami.

I remember Hardaway and Johnson having one year where I thought they were comparable to Stockton. More willing scorers. Stockton better at everything else. Price was never at his level

[Baller234]

I remember Hardaway and Johnson having one year where I thought they were comparable to Stockton. More willing scorers. Stockton better at everything else. Price was never at his level

Lol, scoring is a pretty big deal.

KJ got to the conference finals TWICE before Stockton AND the finals before Stockton. The moment KJ got paired with another superstar, like Stockton had, he went to the finals.

Believe me I am not saying this is proof of anything definitive, just that the gap between these two guys is nowhere near as big as you're making it seem.

[Xiao Yao You]

Lol, scoring is a pretty big deal.

KJ got to the conference finals TWICE before Stockton AND the finals before Stockton. The moment KJ got paired with another superstar, like Stockton had, he went to the finals.

Believe me I am not saying this is proof of anything definitive, just that the gap between these two guys is nowhere near as big as you're making it seem.

yeah scoring is a pretty big deal so is keeping the opposing team from scoring. The Suns had a lot more talent than the Jazz. Johnson was nowhere the player Stockton was. Being great for two decades is a fairly big deal too

[Duffy Pratt]

It wasn't just one season though. KJ, Timmy and Price all had multiple seasons of elite play. They are 3x, 4x and 5x all-stars respectively. Timmy and KJ were legit 22 & 10 guys for multiple seasons. Absolute studs. Timmy even finished 4th in MVP voting during his time in Miami.

And between the three of them combined, they just manage to surpass Stockton’s number of all star (10) or all NBA (11) selections. Stockton also made 5 all defense teams, compared to the combined zero for those guys. Your memory is different than mine. No-one I knew would have seriously considered any of those guys as being as good as Stockton, and it wasn’t even close.

[Baller234]

And between the three of them combined, they just manage to surpass Stockton’s number of all star (10) or all NBA (11) selections. Stockton also made 5 all defense teams, compared to the combined zero for those guys. Your memory is different than mine. No-one I knew would have seriously considered any of those guys as being as good as Stockton, and it wasn’t even close.

If nobody considered them as good as Stockton, why are there multiple instances of these guys scoring higher all-team selections?

1991
- KJ (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1993
- Price (1st team)
- Stockton (2nd team)

1997
- Timmy (1st team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1998
- Payton (1st team)
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Stockton (None)

1999
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

It's like you guys don't understand english. I'm not saying these guys are better than Stockton on the all time list. I'm perfectly willing to give Stockton the nod due to his defense and more importantly his longevity, but don't tell me he was in a class by himself when these guys were forcing the debate in real time.

[Xiao Yao You]

If nobody considered them as good as Stockton, why are there multiple instances of these guys scoring higher all-team selections?

1991
- KJ (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1993
- Price (1st team)
- Stockton (2nd team)

1997
- Timmy (1st team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1998
- Payton (1st team)
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Stockton (None)

1999
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

It's like you guys don't understand english. I'm not saying these guys are better than Stockton on the all time list. I'm perfectly willing to give Stockton the nod due to his defense and more importantly his longevity, but don't tell me he was in a class by himself when these guys were forcing the debate in real time.

'91 there might be an argument for Johnson. Only reason I can see Price being picked over Stockton in '93 would be the Cavs were a lot better team. Statistically it's not close and again besides Payton none of these guys were close to him defensively. None were close to him as a playmaker. None were close to his efficiency. Hardaway shot 42% in '97 vs the elite efficiency of Stockton and the Jazz were the better team so that one's a joke. Payton has a better argument but he took and missed a lot of 3's for the time and sucked at the line as well and the Jazz were the better team. The next year Stockton's minutes were reduced greatly so you could argue those guys over him based on that but again besides points and hype what do they have over the old man? Hardaway was a bit more efficient and Seattle was close to Utah. Payton wasn't the playmaker the other guys were but he turned it over less. '99 was the lockout and compacted schedule which killed the Jazz and their old team. Jazz still the better team though. Seattle was a .500 team so Payton is kind of a joke that year for sure. Hardaway down to 40%. Payton's efficiency took a nosedive. What I see is Stockton there every year for a couple of decades and these other guys just trying to keep up with the old man. More hype and more points I guess? It's not close really. What a machine Stockton was!

[Duffy Pratt]

If nobody considered them as good as Stockton, why are there multiple instances of these guys scoring higher all-team selections?

1991
- KJ (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1993
- Price (1st team)
- Stockton (2nd team)

1997
- Timmy (1st team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

1998
- Payton (1st team)
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Stockton (None)

1999
- Timmy (2nd team)
- Payton (2nd team)
- Stockton (3rd team)

It's like you guys don't understand english. I'm not saying these guys are better than Stockton on the all time list. I'm perfectly willing to give Stockton the nod due to his defense and more importantly his longevity, but don't tell me he was in a class by himself when these guys were forcing the debate in real time.

Joker was 2nd team all NBA this year.

[Baller234]

Joker was 2nd team all NBA this year.

You're 100% right. I don't think that media awards are proof of anything at all.

But it definitely suggests that fans and experts at the time were NOT unanimously in agreement that Stockton was the clear cut best PG in the league, which is what you inferred. Obviously he had stiff competition.

And the Jokic snub is bad, but that's also highlighted by him winning a championship. Stockton doesn't have the jewelry.

[Baller234]

'91 there might be an argument for Johnson. Only reason I can see Price being picked over Stockton in '93 would be the Cavs were a lot better team. Statistically it's not close and again besides Payton none of these guys were close to him defensively. None were close to him as a playmaker. None were close to his efficiency. Hardaway shot 42% in '97 vs the elite efficiency of Stockton and the Jazz were the better team so that one's a joke. Payton has a better argument but he took and missed a lot of 3's for the time and sucked at the line as well and the Jazz were the better team. The next year Stockton's minutes were reduced greatly so you could argue those guys over him based on that but again besides points and hype what do they have over the old man? Hardaway was a bit more efficient and Seattle was close to Utah. Payton wasn't the playmaker the other guys were but he turned it over less. '99 was the lockout and compacted schedule which killed the Jazz and their old team. Jazz still the better team though. Seattle was a .500 team so Payton is kind of a joke that year for sure. Hardaway down to 40%. Payton's efficiency took a nosedive. What I see is Stockton there every year for a couple of decades and these other guys just trying to keep up with the old man. More hype and more points I guess? It's not close really. What a machine Stockton was!

Lol, how can you accuse players who put up 22 & 10 for multiple seasons of not being great playmakers?

Not going to bother getting bogged down in arguments over efficiency because Stockton didn't approach the game with a scoring mentality and wasn't taking as many shots. Stockton scored 30+ points only 11 times in his career, Kevin Johnson has done it 70 times. Tim Hardaway has done it 62 times. Keep in mind they didn't play nearly as many games.

Being able to score 30 (or possibly 40) is not just something you gloss over. That's an invaluable skill also, on top of being great set up guys.