Illinois basketball fans

[ThaKing]

I was under the impression that Bruce Weber would overcome the obvious lack of talent and take Illinois to unprecedented levels. Hate to say I told you so but I kinda did. I just couldn't imagine playing for that guy with his high pitched voice and goofy antics. Seriously though I bet Illinois would be a Top 5, Top 10 team at worst, had Bill Self stayed. With all the talent produced in that area in the last 4-5 years he would have an even more talented team then he does at Kansas. Anyone have any thoughts?

[wang4three]

Watching anymore late game collapses will give me a heart attack.

[IlliniFan]

Watching anymore late game collapses will give me a heart attack.

I would stop watching Illinois games if that's the case.

[wang4three]

I still don't know why Mike Davis wasn't getting minutes at the end. He was playing well in the first half. His off ball movement has improved sooo much. I love it.

[TheGame414]

I was under the impression that Bruce Weber would overcome the obvious lack of talent and take Illinois to unprecedented levels. Hate to say I told you so but I kinda did.

Congrats. I'll be right here, nervously awaiting word on whether you injured your shoulder in your rush to pat yourself on the back.

I just couldn't imagine playing for that guy with his high pitched voice and goofy antics.

Well, the three best in-state players for 2009, and the two best in-state players for 2010, apparently can imagine playing for him. I could just as easily say I wouldn't want to play for Self because of his hillbilly Oklahoma twang.

Or I could not be a dumbass, and pick who I play for based on things aside from what their voice sounds like.

Seriously though I bet Illinois would be a Top 5, Top 10 team at worst, had Bill Self stayed.

I bet, if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle.

With all the talent produced in that area in the last 4-5 years he would have an even more talented team then he does at Kansas. Anyone have any thoughts?

First thought: why do you care? You have no valid reason for wanting to "rub it in" because Illinois or Bruce Weber never did anything to wrong Kansas. Illinois fans at least had a valid reason to cheer against Kansas, in that Self left us. Plain and simple. It doesn't mean it's a good reason. It doesn't mean some Illinois fans took their hatred of Self too far. But it's at least a valid reason.

I know I damn sure didn't care about bad teams when Illinois was stomping on everyone in 2005. Now you're cheering for a team that's damn near as good as that one was, and you're worried about Bruce Weber? Jeez. Worry about him in 2010, when he has a stacked squad again and is rejoining Kansas in the Top 10.

No, Self wouldn't have a more talented team than he does at Kansas. First of all, you're presuming that all those talented kids would have landed at Illinois in any circumstance. We can say with certainty that Jon Scheyer would be at Duke no matter what. We can say with relative certainty that Derrick Rose would be at Memphis anyway, because that's where Worldwide Wes wanted him to be. Sherron Collins? Yeah, he'd probably be here. Julian Wright? Maybe so, but even though Self got him to Kansas he may not have got him to Illinois, because Wright simply didn't want to go here. Brandon Rush? He wanted to go to Illinois originally, but he didn't get in academically.

My guess would be the Illinois roster would look something like this if Self was here. (And since I have no animosity toward Self, and since the promise of a bright future in a couple years eases the pain of watching this team, I have no problem doing this). This is purely speculative, for fun.

G- Sherron Collins, So.
G- E'Twaun Moore, Fr. (Self never really recruited Gordon when he was at Kansas, from what I remember; the reason Gordon committed to Illinois instead of waiting to see what happened at Indiana in the first place was Weber's offense, which is obviously different from Self's offense)
G- Jerel McNeal, Jr.
F- Darnell Jackson, Sr.
C- Shaun Pruitt, Sr.


Bench:

G- Jamar Smith, Jr. (I know he wasn't highly touted and most of Self's recruits are, but Sergio McClain telling his dad how good he was is what led to him being offered by Illinois; my guess is, Self would have listened to Wayne McClain just like Weber did)
G- Demetri McCamey, Fr.
F- Alex Tyus, Fr. (Wanted to commit to Illinois at one point; Weber couldn't accept the commit because he was still recruiting Rose for what was our final spot in that class, with Gordon still committed at the time. My guess is Self wouldn't have taken both Tisdale and Cole, and Cole would be the one in an Illinois uniform- even though Tisdale is better- because he's a Peoria kid.)
F- Calvin Brock, Jr.
F- Bill Cole, Fr.
C- Brian Carlwell, So.


I'm not a Bruce Weber loyalist. My opinion on him has been changed, because I'm willing to change my opinion when new information presents itself. He's made some bad mistakes in his overall recruiting approach and has been on the end of some unprecedented bad luck. The recruiting approach has changed, we've been on the good end of the luck spectrum as of late (the friendship of the 2009 guards, the timing for Jerrance Howard's hiring, Alex Legion leaving Kentucky), so guess what? You should be smart enough to figure this one out: Illinois will be good again because they'll have talent again. No matter what you think of Bruce Weber, or what I think of him for that matter, they will be good again because they'll have good players in the next couple years. Don't forget, in 1999, Illinois was last in the Big Ten and finished 14-18. Two years later, we were first in the Big Ten, went 27-8, got a No. 1 seed and went to the Elite Eight.

Why? The young guys getting banged around on that '99 team grew up and matured into a quality supporting cast for newcomers Frank Williams, Brian Cook and Marcus Griffin. Now Mike Tisdale, Mike Davis and Demetri McCamey are playing the roles of young guys getting beat up that will mature into a solid group, with Legion and Smith bolstering the wing next year and the five best in-state players in 2009 and 2010 joining a year (and two) after that, the framework has been laid for an outstanding team for 2-3 years, just as previous recruiting blunders laid the framework for this disaster.

[TheGame414]

Watching anymore late game collapses will give me a heart attack.

Well, it's not going to change any time soon. If I'd been able to see today's game (was busy all day, forgot to DVR it), I could probably say more about it. I keep making fun of Bruce Weber's "prevent offense," but the reality is we don't have a scorer to finish plays when things break down, to get to the line to get points when there otherwise would be none. And that's a recipe for exactly what you see from this Illinois team: they can hang around just long enough to let you down.

We don't have a creator. McCamey's gonna be that guy eventually, and has done it at times this year, but he isn't there yet.

We sure could use Legion. Like, now.

From what I can tell, we defended IDKWTI as well as anyone has so far this year.

[wang4three]

I guess I should've prefaced it by saying I was being a bitterly sarcastic. Probably should wait awhile after the game and let it sit before I post.

But I am happy about a few things:

McCamey is really beginning to understand this offense. He's making smart plays and passes and being timely. He's also being a lot more aggressive with his offense which I love. He needs to be a bit quicker in his decision making but you see the framework being laid out.

Mike Davis. His progress is stellar. If he keeps up at it, we're looking at a real stud. He gets better every game and like I said before, his off-ball movement is getting better.

Brian Randle taking that last shot. Yeah he airballed it. Yeah it was a bad shot. But he took it anyway. Seemed like he wanted that last shot and maybe this will start his trend to claim this as his team. Oh and his defense on Gordon was stellar. Him and Brock did a fantastic job, as good as anyone can do.

So all in all it was not a terrible loss. Like every other game, came down to us not making our free throws. Nothing new. It's not going to change anytime soon with this team.

[TheGame414]

It just isn't worth getting worked up about. The talent just isn't there yet. You add Jamar and Legion to this team right now, and it's maybe a Top 25 team. That's how thin of a margin it can be sometimes between being bad and good.

[ThaKing]

Congrats. I'll be right here, nervously awaiting word on whether you injured your shoulder in your rush to pat yourself on the back.

Well, the three best in-state players for 2009, and the two best in-state players for 2010, apparently can imagine playing for him. I could just as easily say I wouldn't want to play for Self because of his hillbilly Oklahoma twang.

Or I could not be a dumbass, and pick who I play for based on things aside from what their voice sounds like.

I bet, if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle.

First thought: why do you care? You have no valid reason for wanting to "rub it in" because Illinois or Bruce Weber never did anything to wrong Kansas. Illinois fans at least had a valid reason to cheer against Kansas, in that Self left us. Plain and simple. It doesn't mean it's a good reason. It doesn't mean some Illinois fans took their hatred of Self too far. But it's at least a valid reason.

I know I damn sure didn't care about bad teams when Illinois was stomping on everyone in 2005. Now you're cheering for a team that's damn near as good as that one was, and you're worried about Bruce Weber? Jeez. Worry about him in 2010, when he has a stacked squad again and is rejoining Kansas in the Top 10.

No, Self wouldn't have a more talented team than he does at Kansas. First of all, you're presuming that all those talented kids would have landed at Illinois in any circumstance. We can say with certainty that Jon Scheyer would be at Duke no matter what. We can say with relative certainty that Derrick Rose would be at Memphis anyway, because that's where Worldwide Wes wanted him to be. Sherron Collins? Yeah, he'd probably be here. Julian Wright? Maybe so, but even though Self got him to Kansas he may not have got him to Illinois, because Wright simply didn't want to go here. Brandon Rush? He wanted to go to Illinois originally, but he didn't get in academically.

My guess would be the Illinois roster would look something like this if Self was here. (And since I have no animosity toward Self, and since the promise of a bright future in a couple years eases the pain of watching this team, I have no problem doing this). This is purely speculative, for fun.

G- Sherron Collins, So.
G- E'Twaun Moore, Fr. (Self never really recruited Gordon when he was at Kansas, from what I remember; the reason Gordon committed to Illinois instead of waiting to see what happened at Indiana in the first place was Weber's offense, which is obviously different from Self's offense)
G- Jerel McNeal, Jr.
F- Darnell Jackson, Sr.
C- Shaun Pruitt, Sr.


Bench:

G- Jamar Smith, Jr. (I know he wasn't highly touted and most of Self's recruits are, but Sergio McClain telling his dad how good he was is what led to him being offered by Illinois; my guess is, Self would have listened to Wayne McClain just like Weber did)
G- Demetri McCamey, Fr.
F- Alex Tyus, Fr. (Wanted to commit to Illinois at one point; Weber couldn't accept the commit because he was still recruiting Rose for what was our final spot in that class, with Gordon still committed at the time. My guess is Self wouldn't have taken both Tisdale and Cole, and Cole would be the one in an Illinois uniform- even though Tisdale is better- because he's a Peoria kid.)
F- Calvin Brock, Jr.
F- Bill Cole, Fr.
C- Brian Carlwell, So.


I'm not a Bruce Weber loyalist. My opinion on him has been changed, because I'm willing to change my opinion when new information presents itself. He's made some bad mistakes in his overall recruiting approach and has been on the end of some unprecedented bad luck. The recruiting approach has changed, we've been on the good end of the luck spectrum as of late (the friendship of the 2009 guards, the timing for Jerrance Howard's hiring, Alex Legion leaving Kentucky), so guess what? You should be smart enough to figure this one out: Illinois will be good again because they'll have talent again. No matter what you think of Bruce Weber, or what I think of him for that matter, they will be good again because they'll have good players in the next couple years. Don't forget, in 1999, Illinois was last in the Big Ten and finished 14-18. Two years later, we were first in the Big Ten, went 27-8, got a No. 1 seed and went to the Elite Eight.

Why? The young guys getting banged around on that '99 team grew up and matured into a quality supporting cast for newcomers Frank Williams, Brian Cook and Marcus Griffin. Now Mike Tisdale, Mike Davis and Demetri McCamey are playing the roles of young guys getting beat up that will mature into a solid group, with Legion and Smith bolstering the wing next year and the five best in-state players in 2009 and 2010 joining a year (and two) after that, the framework has been laid for an outstanding team for 2-3 years, just as previous recruiting blunders laid the framework for this disaster.

I don't want to take the time to read all that garbage but we can agree to disagree.

[TheGame414]

I don't want to take the time to read all that garbage but we can agree to disagree.

Nice laydown.

No, we can't agree to disagree, for two reasons. One, I'm not going to let you get away with letting your evaluation of the Illinois talent situation go one way, and one way only. If you want to pat yourself on the back for the fact that you foresaw Illinois' downfall coming because of poor recruiting, don't be a hypocrite and fail to notice the outstanding influx of talent Illinois has arriving over the next three years (though I will say, even though Tisdale and Davis are going to be good, I wish we had a spot for Tyler Griffey in 2009).

Like I said, you should know as well as I do that talent rules all.

The second reason I won't agree to disagree...we actually agree on a large chunk of this. I don't know why you fail to recognize that. Wait, I guess I do; your pathetic laydown in response to my first post.

[ThaKing]

Nice laydown.

No, we can't agree to disagree, for two reasons. One, I'm not going to let you get away with letting your evaluation of the Illinois talent situation go one way, and one way only. If you want to pat yourself on the back for the fact that you foresaw Illinois' downfall coming because of poor recruiting, don't be a hypocrite and fail to notice the outstanding influx of talent Illinois has arriving over the next three years (though I will say, even though Tisdale and Davis are going to be good, I wish we had a spot for Tyler Griffey in 2009).

Like I said, you should know as well as I do that talent rules all.

The second reason I won't agree to disagree...we actually agree on a large chunk of this. I don't know why you fail to recognize that. Wait, I guess I do; your pathetic laydown in response to my first post.

Pathetic laydown? No I just don't have the time to spend hours on internet message boards like you do. I don't follow recruiting nearly as close as I once did. I do think Rose would be in orange and blue along with those 2 kids that left for Oregon. How are you gonna call me a hypocrite in reguards to Illinois future? I didnt say anything about it, it sounds like Bruce has turned his recruiting around and eventually you guys will get better. But arent these kids your waiting on like sophomore's in high school? I mean who cares? 2008 conference play has started and its hard for me to care about 2011. Here's a few things I wanted to pass along.



Gordon 1 - Weber 0

"Bruce Weber’s days at Illinois may be numbered. He inherited a fantastic team from Bill Self and after going to the Championship game in his first season, has taken them nowhere, adding very little talent. That low talent level was what cost them most against Indiana on Sunday, as the Hoosiers came from behind to win" -Adi Joseph NBADRAFT.net

Carry on.

[TheGame414]

I don't follow recruiting that closely these days, myself. I essentially retired from Illiniboard and haven't posted here in the last two weeks until today. I've wanted to, since I should stop by on occasion since I moderate this forum, but I simply haven't had time.

I was hopeful Rose would come to Illinois, but I knew it was unrealistic because his recruitment involved things Weber won't get involved in. You know that as well as I do.

Humphrey and Dunigan, I don't even know what happened there. The 2008 class was an unmitigated disaster.

And you're quoting NBADraft.net? Seriously? That's a strong contender for worst basketball website on the internet. Right or wrong, Weber isn't going anywhere.

[IlliniFan]

Finally a blowout victory, at home! We haven't been doing so well there this season. Hopefully, this team is finally starting to put it all together. If we could get Randle and Pruitt to play like this consistently, we can be a good team.

[TheGame414]

If the two guards we currently have sitting out were on the current roster, we'd be a good team. As it is, we're nowhere near it and won't be all year.

[wang4three]

Sign me up for the McCamey fam.