AD is shedding light on Kareem's career & ranking, imo (new all-time rankings inside)

[3ball]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.

So to me, 2-way assassins with scoring versatility (MJ, Kobe) are the goats because they seemed to need the least help... So they're in the top 3 for me.. the historic PG's are next in line, with goat physical forces Wilt and Shaq coming next.. Kareem comes AFTER all these guys, and ahead of team-hoppers/super-team seekers Durant and Lebron..


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant


Something like that.. If Kawhi wins a couple rings with the Clippers, he would easily be top 10 because he fits the optimal player type of "2-way assassin with scoring versatility"

And you might be wondering how I have Bird #2 as a 2-way assassin... I think his defense is vastly underrated and he actually was a 2-way assassin.. Celtics had the #1 defense with Bird and his savvy/next-level basketball brain/instinct
.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe at #3 all-time is laughably stupid.

If Lebron should win an "automatic title" with Anthony Davis...and if not, should be humiliated.

How the **** did Kobe only manage to win 3 titles in 8 years with a player far better than Anthony Davis, based on your own rankings if Kobe was considerably better than Lebron?

[Akeem34TheDream]

Anthony Davis> Michael Jordan

[SpaceJam2]

MJ needed more help than any player in league history, while also facing the weakest opponents in league history

Pippen simply did more



MJ faced terribly weak contenders



He had very little impact



While playing in a terribly weak era






While having zero records



Now stop this nonsense. Dont make SpaceDaddy2 spank you again

[SouBeachTalents]

OP has literally made half a dozen different top 10's this year

[3ball]

Kobe at #3 all-time is laughably stupid.

Kobe's ranking could be different depending on how dominant you think his frontcourt was with Pau and Bynum

It might indeed have been incredibly dominant, which would bump his ranking downwards.

But otherwise, he didn't need the help that anyone else on the list had

So I concede that his proper rank might be more in the 7-10 range

I also forgot to work historic PG Oscar into the mix and Lebron could be ranked higher too... so my rankings need some tweaking, but I think the concepts are there to come up with logical ranking.. 2-way assassins are the best (MJ/Kobe).. dominant physical forces 2nd (wilt/shaq).. goat PG's/bird-feeders are 3rd (Magic, Lebron)... bird-fed bigs are 4th (Russell, kareem).. and then the team-hoppers like Durant/lebron, and I think Dr. J should be in there (not as a team-hopper, but just overall as a player, he's close to Durant and lebron).. Duncan is an interesting case because he was not bird-fed and could control an offense himself - I rank him ahead of the goat pg's and bird-fed bigs, but behind the physical forces wilt and shaq.
.

[SpaceJam2]

OP has literally made half a dozen different top 10's this year

Bruce is a lunatic what can we say

[72-10]

Never in my life haev I seen Bird so high except for that guy MerkinMuffly, but I don't think you're him. I don't know how so much credit can be doled out to Bird given his paucity on defense, but I agree that he might be the second best player to play since he played.

[red1]

I'm considering putting pippen above MJ after reading your threads 3ball. you've built a very convincing case.

[3ball]

Kobe's ranking could be different depending on how dominant you think his frontcourt was with Pau and Bynum

It might indeed have been incredibly dominant, which would bump his ranking downwards.

But otherwise, he didn't need the help that anyone else on the list had

So I concede that his proper rank might be more in the 7-10 range

I also forgot to work historic PG Oscar into the mix and Lebron could be ranked higher too... so my rankings need some tweaking, but I think the concepts are there to come up with logical ranking.. [COLOR="DarkRed"]2-way assassins/versatile scorers are the best.. goat PG's 2nd... dominant physical forces 3rd (wilt/shaq).. other goat bigs 4th (Duncan, Russell, kareem).. and then the team-hoppers like Durant/lebron, and I think Dr. J should be in there.[/COLOR]

^^^ based on that criteria, Lebron could be as high as #5 and as low as the teens..

I lean towards the latter due to team-hopping, spectacular teammate marginalization, and also issues regarding clutch and losing as the favorite/perennial underdogs/underachieving with great supporting talent/record losses.. and can't shoot

[LAL]

Kobe is 2, almost 3 peated with Pau (bynum averaged like 5ppg in the finals) and 3 peated with shaq and role players. And the best player i ever saw but MJ has the perfect career almost.

Not even Bird could win as much with his very own superteam as Kobe.

Kareem is overrated, needed magic and a superteam, 3d option Worthy winning finals mvp even.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kobe and Jordan had the most help of anyone on that list relative to their competition

OP claiming the opposite is akin to Kyrie saying the world is flat or some shit. We're laughing at you 3ball. Your takes and opinions are so fukking bad.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why are Oscar and Wilt ahead of Lebron?

[Shogon]

Kobe and Jordan had the most help of anyone on that list relative to their competition

OP claiming the opposite is akin to Kyrie saying the world is flat or some shit. We're laughing at you 3ball. Your takes and opinions are so fukking bad.

3ball is a gimmick account. It's not real. You're laughing at the wind.

[3ball]

Kobe is 2, almost 3 peated with Pau (bynum averaged like 5ppg in the finals) and 3 peated with shaq and role players. And the best player i ever saw but MJ has the perfect career almost.

Not even Bird could win as much with his very own superteam as Kobe.

Kareem is overrated, needed magic and a superteam, 3d option Worthy winning finals mvp even.

I agree 100% about Kareem, and I'm also thinking that Magic could be overrated in my rankings

it's possible that the goat PG's like Magic should be below the physical forces like Wilt/Shaq, but still ahead of guys they had to bird feed like kareem and Russell...

Duncan is a tough one because he could create his own shot well and wasn't bird-fed.. I think he's better than kareem tbh.. the true rankings probably have MJ/Bird/Kobe as top 3, and then Wilt/Shaq, and then Duncan, Magic, Lebron, Oscar, and then the bird-fed Kareem and Russell, and then Durant/Dr. J and possibly Kawhi..

And realistically, Magic and Kareem can't both be ranked top 5, because they're too much help for each other, so that's in line with the aforementioned logic.