1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[Soundwave]

I know what he averaged, and I don't care. Robinson didn't win just because he padded. He outscored Shaq by .5 a game.

Game is game. Numbers don't mean shit on their own.

Shaq had a better team around him than Ewing and won less. I'm looking at play and the impact is a result of it. Pippen played better.

60% shooting for Shaq on 19 FGA/game is practically historic efficiency, I don't know if we've seen that in the NBA since. 93-94 arguably might be the 2nd best season Shaq ever had.

And the Magic were still finding themselves that year, they did not have Horace Grant yet and Penny was just a rookie who being mentored by Scott Skiles.

Scottie Pippen was never better than Shaq at any point of either of their 20s-early 30s age for age, year for year. No way.

Ewing was also better than Pippen that year, and so were DRob and Hakeem. Pippen was maybe the 5th best player in the league that year, this is just an instance of a narrative story line over riding actual play on the court.

If the Bulls had the best record in the league or something, OK I get him getting the trophy on the "Steve Nash" argument, but that would be the Sonics, and apparently Kemp or Payton got dick all in credit for that, lol. Which other season is the team with the no.1 record in the league not even given a top 5 candidate for MVP? The Bulls didn't even have the top record in their own division.

To be honest the Atlanta Hawks winning 57 games after only winning 43 the season prior AND trading Dominique Wilkins (so I guess ... Stacey Augmon was "the man"?) mid-season is more shocking all around. 93-94 was a bizarre year all around, right from the Jordan retirement to the OJ Simpson chase interrupting the NBA Finals towards the end. I'll never forget watching that, it was surreal.

[Sarcastic]

Not even close. He shouldn't have even finished 3rd. He got voted that high because it was a feel good story at the time, since the Bulls were without Jordan. You can make an argument for multiple players ahead of Pippen in 94, aside from Hakeem and Robinson, including Shaq, Ewing, Kemp, and Malone.

[Whoah10115]

Not even close. He shouldn't have even finished 3rd. He got voted that high because it was a feel good story at the time, since the Bulls were without Jordan. You can make an argument for multiple players ahead of Pippen in 94, aside from Hakeem and Robinson, including Shaq, Ewing, Kemp, and Malone.

You can't make an argument for any version of Kemp

60% shooting for Shaq on 19 FGA/game is practically historic efficiency, I don't know if we've seen that in the NBA since. 93-94 arguably might be the 2nd best season Shaq ever had.

And the Magic were still finding themselves that year, they did not have Horace Grant yet and Penny was just a rookie who being mentored by Scott Skiles.

Scottie Pippen was never better than Shaq at any point of either of their 20s-early 30s age for age, year for year. No way.

Ewing was also better than Pippen that year, and so were DRob and Hakeem. Pippen was maybe the 5th best player in the league that year, this is just an instance of a narrative story line over riding actual play on the court.

If the Bulls had the best record in the league or something, OK I get him getting the trophy on the "Steve Nash" argument, but that would be the Sonics, and apparently Kemp or Payton got dick all in credit for that, lol. Which other season is the team with the no.1 record in the league not even given a top 5 candidate for MVP? The Bulls didn't even have the top record in their own division.

To be honest the Atlanta Hawks winning 57 games after only winning 43 the season prior AND trading Dominique Wilkins (so I guess ... Stacey Augmon was "the man"?) mid-season is more shocking all around. 93-94 was a bizarre year all around, right from the Jordan retirement to the OJ Simpson chase interrupting the NBA Finals towards the end. I'll never forget watching that, it was surreal.

I get all that, but Pippen was simply a basketball player.

They had a solid team, but Pippen had to be his best version. He was just as good the next year but the teammates were much worse.

It does mean a lot to win 55 post Jordan. Especially since many of the players had been in 3 straight Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not even close. He shouldn't have even finished 3rd. He got voted that high because it was a feel good story at the time, since the Bulls were without Jordan. You can make an argument for multiple players ahead of Pippen in 94, aside from Hakeem and Robinson, including Shaq, Ewing, Kemp, and Malone.

Pippen beat Malone 94-68 in all-NBA voting that year (narrative not an excuse for all-NBA voting). He was the highest overall vote getter but hard to compare across positions. We don't need to do that with forwards, though. Only in retrospect is it argued by MJ stans/Pippen detractors Malone was considered better than Pippen in 94'.

Feel good story. Ewing had a great case. Ewing never finished higher than 4th in MVP in his career. He played for New York...no "feel good" story there? It sounds like the voters just didn't give him the same credit. He actually finished 5th in 94', lower than in 93'. It is obvious MVP voters, rightly or wrongly, never really considered him of MVP timber, relative to his team success and reputation--despite having the ultimate boost of playing for New York.

Ewing was not even all-NBA that year. Tough position--but he beat those guys in other years so what's the excuse for 94'? Ewing benefits from the glow of making the finals but that isn't relevant to MVP voting and was unknown to voters when they voted.

Shaq? On a 50 win team? How often is a player on a 50 win team a MVP

Kemp? As the second best player on his own team?

We are seeing random names thrown out there. Might as well throw in Mark Price, Mookie Blaylock, Derrick Coleman. Forget top 3. How did Pippen get any MVP votes at all?

Fact check time:

1) Hakeem 889
2) Robinson 730
3) Pippen 390
4) Shaq 289
5) Ewing 255
6) Payton 20
7) Malone/Kemp 17
9) Price 7
10) Barkley 5

Kemp deserved it over Pippen, though. Only on ISH.

A top 5 player on a team that, when he played, had the best RS performance in his conference being a MVP candidate. What a travesty.

The 94' excuses (the only year worse than 2020 in the annals of history?) ignores Pippen was getting MVP consideration in 96' before he got hurt. Would he have won? No, but he could have finished 3rd instead of 5th had he not gotten hurt the final quarter of the season and his numbers nose-dived.

[Roundball_Rock]

The argument that Pippen didn't deserve consideration is belied by the implied impact he had. His team was on a 33 win pace without him with a -9 point differential. That would be the worst point differential in the league over a full season. Their offense was 21st without him, 8th with him (so essentially they went from the Kings offense to the Jazz offense with him). As to win pace, with him it was 58 wins and 59 wins if you exclude the meaningless 82nd game. In 95' he missed 3 games total, 2 pre-MJ, so a tiny sample size, but FWIW the Bulls went 0-2 in those games. So that is 4-8 without Pippen, without MJ. You could throw in a game he was ejected in the second quarter as well--a loss to a 17 win team. That would be 4-9.

If certain other players had this type of impact we would never hear the end of it. Smaller impacts get touted routinely on ISH.

MVP isn't a best player award. When were Iverson, Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Nash, Dirk, and so on the best player? Nor does the "Nash changed everything" excuse fly. Robinson won it when Hakeem was the best player, Barkley when MJ was, even back then. Hakeem was 5th in MVP as the best player in 95'. Malone over MJ. Etc. etc.

Many of these names were on the team with the best record but in 94' that wasn't a factor because Seattle had no superstar (Payton arguably became one later--but he wasn't there in 94', which was his first all-star season).

If you remove the names "Pippen" and "Robinson" and "Ewing" you find their scenarios are very similar. All superstars, all on teams that won 55-57 games, etc. The difference was the road taken to get to those win totals was very different...

[Roundball_Rock]

The Ewing talk is fascinating whenever the 94' MVP comes up.

Team A: Goes from 60 wins and 1st place to 57 wins and 2nd place
Team B: Goes from 57 wins and 2nd place to 55 wins and 3rd place

On its face, this appears to be the same thing: both teams lost a couple wins, both slipped a spot in the standings.

Except that "Team B" lost the best player in the NBA at his peak at the last minute (so no real replacement) while "Team A" ran the same team back. Even Pippen's biggest detractors are quick--in any other context--to point to the turnover the roster had for 94' (albeit on the bench, aside from SG).

Yet voters were supposed to favor the best player on Team A over Team B? After they ranked him 4th the prior year when his team and he (2nd team all-NBA in 93'; not all-NBA in 94') had done even better? So his team does worse, he does worse and he is supposed to move up in MVP voting?

Ewing is a convenient tool as is Malone. Utah was the 5 seed (after adding Hornacek), Pippen and Malone weren't even close in all-NBA but Malone should have been higher in MVP?

Here is what was happening (article from March 28, so right at the end of the season) then:

Although O'Neal has proved far better than his critics will admit, the second NBA player not named Michael, Larry or Earvin to win an MVP award since 1983 will be named David or Hakeem. Or possibly Scottie.

With just a month left in the MVP voting among national media, Robinson and Houston's Hakeem Olajuwon have emerged as the favorites, with the Bulls' Scottie Pippen hanging around on the edge.

All three leading contenders have been criticized, doubted and ignored until this season. Robinson wasn't even among the top five in the MVP voting last year, Pippen never has been higher than ninth and Olajuwon wasn't even in the top 20 two years ago.

And all have answered their potential, if not their accusers.
Olajuwon, the angry one, has calmed noticeably, no longer fighting with himself and management.

Pippen has done the impossible, making Jordan's shadow disappear, and Robinson, with the addition of Dennis Rodman to rebound and motivate him, has become an angry man, or at least more determined.

There is some other anger around, notably from those who think they are deserving of the award but being overlooked.

"Shaq is leading the league in scoring, is second in rebounding and shooting on one of the league's most improved teams," noted Orlando General Manager Pat Williams. "He should be right there with Hakeem and Robinson."

Patrick Ewing should, too, says his coach, Pat Riley.

"If there ever was a time he deserved to be MVP, it was last year," said Riley, "when his team won 60 games and 24 of the last 28. And he's had a great season again."

But Ewing's poor performances against Olajuwon and Robinson-he's averaging 13 points a game against them this season to 33 for them-and publicity-shy ways make him a long shot.

So the Knicks' coach, Magic GM are lamenting that Ewing and Shaq aren't even in the hunt but they "clearly" should have finished in the top 3 in the eyes of a collection of "Pippen detractors" 26 years later?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...103-story.html

[ZenMaster7210]

Played 6th easiest schedule, didn't even win division behind Hawks, finished bottom half in the league in team offense, only eighth in league in scoring but not top 50 in true shooting (terrible inefficiency), shot 66 percent from the line and wasn't even top 50 in Ftr (ungodly bad), got locked down and knocked out of the playoffs by Knicks in second round... Player of the decade and MVP ladies and gentleman. Also, he didn't lead team in rebounds so don't know what is up with that.

DAMN!

I love Pip but this post will be ignored by the MJ haters.

[BigShotBob]

Played 6th easiest schedule, didn't even win division behind Hawks, finished bottom half in the league in team offense, only eighth in league in scoring but not top 50 in true shooting (terrible inefficiency), shot 66 percent from the line and wasn't even top 50 in Ftr (ungodly bad), got locked down and knocked out of the playoffs by Knicks in second round... Player of the decade and MVP ladies and gentleman. Also, he didn't lead team in rebounds so don't know what is up with that.

I told ya'll it's a wrap. Roundball_Cuck is just talking to himself.

[Roundball_Rock]

I love Pip but this post will b

Let's put it to the test--and apply the same metrics to other contenders (throwing Ewing, Shaq in there too in addition to the 3 real contenders). See, what Pippen haters can't grasp is all-time rankers, all-NBA voters, MVP voters, etc. have to apply the same criteria to each player. There isn't a special "I hate Pippen" standard. Using his own standards, who is MVP?

Played 6th easiest schedule,

Chicago SOS: 22nd
Houston SOS: 17th
Spurs SOS: 20th
Knicks SOS: 27th (last in the league--27 teams then)
Magic SOS: 21st

As usual, a TP crumbles upon examination. It looks like if they had the Knicks' SOS they would be the team with 57 wins and the Knicks the one with 55.

The other thing is, as shown earlier in the thread "Pippen played" isn't the same as the 82 games because he missed the softest part of the schedule early in the season.

didn't even win division behind Hawks

The Spurs didn't either. That disqualifies Robinson? Orlando was a 50 win team--7 games behind division leader. No Shaq then?

They lost the division because they sucked without Pippen. Ironically, Pippen detractors point to losing the division, losing the #1 seed to argue against Pippen's value. Points for creativity?

Finished bottom half in the league in team offense

8th in the games he played--21st without him. You undercut your own point: the offense sucked without him (87 PPG) yet that means he was less valuable?

Bulls offensive rank: 8th (healthy), 14th (actual)
Rockets offensive rank: 15th
Knicks offensive rank: 16th
Spurs offensive rank: 4th
Magic offensive rank: 3rd

So that disqualifies Hakeem, Ewing whose offenses sucked with them (Pippen's was equal to the Jazz offense with him). Robinson, Shaq had good offenses but were eliminated earlier (along with Pippen) for their teams losing their division.

got locked down and knocked out of the playoffs by Knicks in second round.

Litigated earlier--deceptive and irrelevant to MVP voting. As relevant as Ewing melting down in the finals or Robinson shrinking from 30 PPG to 20 PPG in the same playoffs (a first round loss to a lower seed) or Shaq getting swept in the first round by a 47 win team. This TP would lead to Hakeem being MVP with Pippen 2nd (Ewing, Robinson melted down and Shaq's team didn't win a playoff game)--but Hakeem was disqualifed earlier for Houston having a below average offense (even worse relative to playoff teams--14th of 16, ahead of Ewing's Knicks and the Nuggets).

This stuff is the ultimate tribute to Pippen: Pippen haters (mostly MJ stans but some Knicks fans sprinkled in) can't come up with an honest, consistent criteria to diminish him. Their own logic frequently helps him. The rub is they are homing missiles to hit Pippen but ignore or conceal the context for other players. The tell always is omitting the corresponding data for other players, teams being discussed or that for his peers (his #'s are presented in vacuums by MJ stans).

By his logic, no one qualifies for MVP.

[Soundwave]

This situation actually if anything just illustrates how stupid and political MVP voting is.

So Ewing leading the Knicks to more wins than the Bulls, the no.1 defence in the league, while having better individual numbers than Pippen isn't "good enough" to be considered in the MVP race (on top of that he knocked Scottie's ass out of the playoffs head-to-head while outplaying him in said series) ... because one of the cited reasons is Ewing is too "media shy".

lol, that's hilarious bull sh*t which just shows how much garbage politics go into the award.

Pippen was outplayed that year by Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and Ewing flat out.

Shaq averaging 29+ ppg on 60% FG is generational efficiency, not even Wilt and Kareem were able to ever do that, they both had one season of 60+% range shooting but not at 29 ppg and the FGA required to get there. It becomes harder to maintain that FG% the more you shoot, for Shaq to be in that range is remarkable.

[Roundball_Rock]

So Ewing leading the Knicks to more wins than the Bulls, the no.1 defence in the league, while having better individual numbers and better efficiency than Pippen

It illustrates the delta between MJ stans 26 years later and MVP, all-NBA voters then. None of those voters compared efficiency between a SF and C. That is a joke. Serious people wouldn't do that. That is for agenda-driven insecure fans 26 years later. You could compare it among Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem but the "efficiency" police only bring it up in connection to one player (even defending worse playoff efficiency on Ewing or Robinson's part in the same threads ).

Pippen's numbers overall arguably were better than Ewing's (offense is more than scoring)--this was discussed in an earlier thread; MJ stans didn't respond.

The faux concern for Ewing in 94' is funny. His team had a better record in 93', was the 1 seed and not the 2 seed in 93', yet the same "advocates" for Ewing in 94' wouldn't say a word about Ewing in 93'. He slipped from 4th to 5th in voting in those years. So he was this heavy hitting MVP candidate that got jobbed in 94' but deservedly a non-factor in 93'? What about 95'? Is there that big a difference between 57 wins in 94' and 55 in 95'?

If it is about team record, the 93' MVP should have been Barkley, Ewing, Jordan, Hakeem in that order--not Barkley, Hakeem, Jordan, Ewing. Pippen simply took MJ's spot as the Bulls' MVP candidate (both finished 3rd--ahead of Ewing who was 4th, 5th).

Ewing never placed higher than 4th in MVP his entire career. Why is that? He played in New York and was never a serious MVP candidate. That says a lot.

he knocked Scottie's ass out of the playoffs

This is one of the bizarre TP's: bringing up playoff performance for the 94' MVP candidates (the big 3 plus Shaq and Ewing). This is supposed to be an argument for Ewing, Robinson, Shaq. What a world Jordanstan is!

As if Robinson did not have an all-time bad playoff (30 PPG down to 20 PPG, 41% FG as a center, etc.) run en route to losing in the 1st round with a 56 win team in 94', Ewing did not author one of the biggest chokes in finals history, and Shaq get swept by a 47 win team. In Jordanstan, though, these things mean they deserved MVP (everybody did--except Pippen, evidently).

[Soundwave]

It illustrates the delta between MJ stans 26 years later and MVP, all-NBA voters then. None of those voters compared efficiency between a SF and C. That is a joke. Serious people wouldn't do that. That is for agenda-driven insecure fans 26 years later. You could compare it among Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem.

Pippen's numbers overall arguably were better than Ewing's (offense is more than scoring)--this was discussed in an earlier thread; MJ stans didn't respond.

The faux concern for Ewing in 94' is funny. His team had a better record in 93', was the 1 seed and not the 2 seed in 93', yet the same "advocates" for Ewing in 94' wouldn't say a word about Ewing in 93'. He slipped from 4th to 5th in voting in those years. So he was this heavy hitting MVP candidate that got jobbed in 94' but deservedly a non-factor in 93'? What about 95'? Is there that big a difference between 57 wins in 94' and 55 in 95'?

If it is about team record, the 93' MVP should have been Barkley, Ewing, Jordan, Hakeem in that order--not Barkley, Hakeem, Jordan, Ewing.



This is one of the bizarre TP's: bringing up playoff performance for the 94' MVP candidates (the big 3 plus Shaq and Ewing). This is supposed to be an argument for Ewing, Robinson, Shaq. What a world Jordanstan is!

As if Robinson did not have an all-time bad playoff (30 PPG down to 20 PPG, 41% FG as a center, etc.) run in 94', Ewing did not author one of the biggest chokes in finals history, and Shaq get swept by a 47 win team.

No it just illustrates how much bull shit is involved in MVP voting. The article you cited states clearly one of the reasons Ewing was not in the mix is basically because he doesn't suck enough media dick.

It's actually hilarious how good the Knicks were defensively (basically either 1 or 2 for several years in the league during this time) and Ewing got very little recognition for that.

The Knicks had a better record than the Bulls. Ewing had better numbers than Pippen. Ewing's team was no.1 in the league in defence. On top of that Ewing beat Pippen head to head in the playoffs while outplaying him in that series by a good sized margin (shit, Horace Grant may have actually been the best Bulls player in that series).

But some how Ewing was less than Pippen that year? Real truth is Pippen was never better than Ewing for any season in the 90s.

The main reason the Knicks did not win the championship in 1994 is John Starks shot freaking 2 for 18 (11% lol) in game 7 which was a 6 point victory by the Rockets. If Starks shoots even a mediocre 33%, they win the title. But at least the Knicks had a shot at winning the title, which I would take every day of the week over getting bounced in the 2nd round.

[Roundball_Rock]

No it just illustrates how much bull shit is involved in MVP voting. The article you cited states clearly one of the reasons Ewing was not in the mix is basically because he doesn't suck enough media dick.

Yeah, and his level of play.

It's actually hilarious how good the Knicks were defensively (basically either 1 or 2 for several years in the league during this time) and Ewing got very little recognition for that.

What were their offensive ranks? We are talking MVP, not DPOY. It wasn't all Ewing either. Oakley, Starks, Mason. Riley's defensive scheme. The Knicks didn't coincidentally become defensive juggeranuts as soon as Riley got there.

The Knicks had a better record than the Bulls

Did their best player retire weeks before the season? Despite that, the Knicks were only 2 games ahead (a meaningless win in game 82 over CHI)? This is an argument for Ewing being MVP? It implies NY underachieved...you have the MVP, you have a 60 win team coming back intact and they regress more than the Bulls who lost the supposed GOAT at his peak did?

But some how Ewing was less than Pippen that year?

One guy was 1st in all-NBA voting; the other didn't even make the third team. It sucks but maybe we can change the votes after the fact for convenience purposes?

The main reason the Knicks did not win the championship in 1994 is John Starks shot freaking 2 for 18 (11% lol) in game 7

The main reason was Ewing choked. Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. Suddenly doesn't matter?

Ewing was 19 PPG on 36% from the field, 39% TS. These are horrific numbers for a center. His prime TS % in the regular season was 55%--so a 16% collapse. Meanwhile, his defensive assignment Hakeem roasted him. This da real MVP? Derek Harper, Starks outplayed Ewing in the finals.

Starks choked in Game 7 too--but that doesn't absolve Ewing's choke.

Besides, what happened? Dat great defense couldn't overcome chokes from their two best players? Such a great team. Finally get a chance at a chip, best players decide to choke.

The best part of the defense hype is they will diss Pippen for playing that very "great" defense and having his numbers regress against that defense (not a Ewing or Robinson-like collapse, though). So on the one hand it is an all-time great defense, on the other, why didn't Pippen maintain his RS efficiency against it? #badfaith23

[Soundwave]

Yeah, and his level of play.



What were their offensive ranks? We are talking MVP, not DPOY. It wasn't all Ewing either. Oakley, Starks, Mason. Riley's defensive scheme. The Knicks didn't coincidentally become defensive juggeranuts as soon as Riley



Did their best player retire weeks before the season? Despite that, the Knicks were only 2 games ahead (a meaningless win in game 82 over CHI)? This is an argument for Ewing being MVP?



One guy was 1st in all-NBA voting; the other didn't even make the third team. It sucks but maybe we can change the votes after the fact for convenience purposes?



The main reason was Ewing choked. Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. Suddenly doesn't matter?

Ewing was 19 PPG on 36% from the field, 39% TS. These are horrific numbers for a center. His prime TS % in the regular season was 55%--so a 16% collapse.

Starks choked in Game 7 too--but that doesn't absolve Ewing's choke.

Besides, what happened? Dat great defense couldn't overcome chokes from their two best players? Such a great team. Finally get a chance at a chip, best players decide to choke.

The best part of the defense hype is they will diss Pippen for playing that very "great" defense. :oldlol

I'd rather be in the Finals than bounced in the 2nd round, maybe if Scottie was actually in fact a better player than Ewing he would have outplayed Ewing in the Bulls-Knicks series and the Bulls would be in the Finals that year, but they weren't because he wasn't.

Ewing was better than Pippen every season of the 90s. And the Knicks had a better record than the Bulls AND were better defensively AND Ewing had better statistics than Pippen. And we know they beat the Bulls in the playoffs that year while Ewing outplayed Pippen head to head in that playoff series.

But y'know ... these are just minor things, lol.

Apparently being on the team with the better record, having better numbers, being on the no.1 team either a defensive or offensive capacity, while also beating said player head to head in the playoffs shouldn't matter ... we should be looking at who's a better ... interview as part of the metric. Yeah that makes sense.

The Knicks were a great defensive team, probably actually even better than the Bulls. Offensively? Not so much. But that doesn't somehow make Pippen a better player, especially when Ewing was a better offensive player anyway. Patrick would have 7-8 titles if he played with Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'd rather be in the Finals than bounced in the 2nd round

What did Robinson's and Shaq's teams do in the playoffs? What did those players do in those series respectively? You can't jump up and down about a (razor thin) 2nd round loss and then advocate for 1st round upsets. #badfaith23 How about formulating some real arguments?

Ewing was outplayed by Derek Harper and John Starks in a NBA finals due to his own meltdown (that defense was nowhere to be seen as Hakeem roasted him). This is the real MVP?

Ewing, Robinson had all-time bad meltdowns--players they advocate for as MVP candidates--yet they harp on Pippen in the ECSF (against, by their own admission, was a great #1 defense--MVP worthy defense in fact!). You can't make this level of bad faith up. All because of insecurity over LeBron.

Pippen's 94' playoff numbers make him look like MJ compared to Ewing, Robinson's 94' playoff numbers.