1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[insidious301]

I'm not even saying he deserved more acclaim than Pippen. I'm saying it's - at the VERY least - a conversation. The mere fact that we're having this conversation proves it.

Yeah I know, Hoops. Just threw that in there myself. You’re right though. I had mentioned to Roundball that Ewing could’ve gotten more recognition. Although depending on the story line, the “criteria” can get murky.

Shaq had MVP numbers. But so did Hakeem and Admiral and on teams with better records. And you simply couldn't ignore Scottie leading the Bulls to a better record as well beyond what I think most of us would have imagined at the time. Plus, as silly as it may seem, I think there's a thing about 'paying dues' and 94 Shaq was a second year player. It wasn't 'his time' yet

That wasn't he argument, Phoenix. We all agree that Hakeem and Robinson were better candidates. And that Hakeem’s MVP was justified(at least I do). Not ignoring Scottie either. My only contention is that Shaq and Ewing were “real” candidates as well. Not the MVP’s but they deserved recognition. In fairness that is me talking with hindsight, and I know there will be disagreement.

I mean the names that come up when MVP is discussed. This year it is Giannis and LeBron. In 08' it was Kobe, Paul, KG. Sure other people get votes but only 2-3 players have a legitimate chance of actually winning it. The others get votes because each ballot has 5 spots. In 94', it was Pippen, Hakeem, Robinson. I posted SI, the Tribune, and anyone can go to the TNT opening of the Bulls-Cavs Game 1 and see Hubie Brown say MVP is between Pippen, Robinson, Hakeem. Shaq, Ewing aren't even mentioned in two of these cases--in one they are mentioned as not being viable candidates.

Got you. It is rare to have 4 or 5 legitimate names in the race, you’re right. Ewing could have gotten more points/votes, and if for nothing else, his teams record. If wins and losses are often a talking point in the MVP discussion, then I don’t see why not. Not a big deal though. Hakeem was obviously the right choice.

[Roundball_Rock]

Perhaps some of his reputation was based on the market? Or maybe all those Bulls-Knicks battles. In other words, if he was dropping 25/10 on some 40 win team( or small market team) would he get as much attention ( then and now)?

I updated my last post. I think some of it is agenda driven. The people hyping Ewing here hype anyone MJ played against. They also use Ewing, like some of the others, to unfavorably contrast Pippen to diminish him.

Outside of that, I think the market was a big factor. Look at Robinson, a better player in the same era who didn't get nearly the hype playing in San Antonio. The Knicks-Bulls rivalry helped since you had a lot of high profile games between the largest and third largest markets, with the Bulls being the most popular team. People didn't care about Knicks-Pacers or Knicks-Heat the same way.

I suspect some of it is a statistical bias to centers. His line includes double digit rebounds, the efficiency crowd will credit his high RS shooting percentage (he was a C--what do you expect?).

All of these things boost him beyond what he was as a player--but of these New York probably is the biggest factor.

So Shaq shouldn't have been an MVP candidate over the aforementioned 3 and that's how the voters saw it as well.

Yeah and some of it is the MVP race can only have so much room. When is the last time there was a legit 4 or 5 way MVP race? In modern times I can recall only 2 or 3 way races (if there was a race, e.g., in 96' MJ won in a walk).

[999Guy]

Pippen was in no way better than Hakeem, D-Rob, or Shaq.

Shaq wasn’t even better the following year in essence. As far as explosion and mobility Shaq peaked from 94-96.

Pippen wasn’t ****ing with him, and we saw how good Orlando really was without Shaq right after he left. Penny was also not developed yet, and Shaq still got them to a better team performance.

Really Shaq was the best offensive player on the planet that season.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen wasn’t ****ing with him, and we saw how good Orlando really was without Shaq right after he left

If that is your metric, the Bulls without Pippen in 94' sucked. Orlando without Shaq was still a playoff team. The Bulls had a 33 win pace without Pippen with a -2.6 rORTG.

Pippen was ahead of Shaq 16-6 in 1st/2nd place votes and crushed him in 3rd place votes for a reason.

It is rare to have 4 or 5 legitimate names in the race, you’re right. Ewing could have gotten more points/votes, and if for nothing else, his teams record. If wins and losses are often a talking point in the MVP discussion, then I don’t see why not. Not a big deal though. Hakeem was obviously the right choice.

Yeah--it just seems MVP voters didn't value him the same way others did then or now.

Some of what hurts the record angle is the narrative is set before the 82nd game. The Knicks, Bulls, Hawks were neck and neck all year. Maybe if the Knicks led all year the narrative would have been better but they were in a close race and finished in the middle of those 3 teams.

For example, here are their wins at the end of March, February, January, December:

March: Knicks/Hawks 50, Bulls 46
February: Hawks 38, Bulls 37, Knicks 36
January: Hawks/Knicks 30, Bulls 29
December: Hawks 19, Bulls/Knicks 18

Even in mid-April the Knicks, Hawks, Bulls all had 54 wins on April 15.

So the order shifted for these teams across the season (Bulls didn't lead at the end of any of these months but they were tied with Atlanta for 1st at the all-star break).

[Phoenix]

Yeah and some of it is the MVP race can only have so much room. When is the last time there was a legit 4 or 5 way MVP race? In modern times I can recall only 2 or 3 way races (if there was a race, e.g., in 96' MJ won in a walk).

I mean this year alone, is anyone else even being discussed from Giannis and Lebron? Nope. Usually by the time we get to April ( or March this year), 2 frontrunners clearly emerge with an odd 3rd darkhorse candidate as an upstart choice. You may start November with 4-5 names but that's whittled down. Luka was getting MVP talk in November.

That wasn't he argument, Phoenix. We all agree that Hakeem and Robinson were better candidates. And that Hakeem’s MVP was justified(at least I do). Not ignoring Scottie either. My only contention is that Shaq and Ewing were “real” candidates as well. Not the MVP’s but they deserved recognition. In fairness that is me talking with hindsight, and I know there will be disagreement.

I mean, I suppose you could say that whoever has a top 5 MVP finish is 'MVP worthy' but there's levels to it. My recollection of that year was Hakeem, Admiral and Scottie getting the MVP talk. Doesn't mean the other two aren't MVP caliber in a vacuum, but they didn't have strong cases over those three. And from what I see, usually by December the media starts picking out a few candidates and runs with it through seasons end. I don't recall someone sneaking in at the end who wasn't identified early on. Remember Steve Nash in 05? People were crowning him MVP before Christmas lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

I mean this year alone, is anyone else even being discussed from Giannis and Lebron? Nope. Usually by the time we get to April ( or March this year), 2 frontrunners clearly emerge with an odd 3rd darkhorse candidate as an upstart choice. You may start November with 4-5 names but that's whittled down. Luka was getting MVP talk in November.

Exactly. Yeah, Harden and Luka were in the mix earlier in the year but both faded. Davis got some talk as well. These players will finish 3rd-5th but we know the real race is Giannis vs. LeBron.

Now imagine 26 years later someone saying Anthony Davis should have been ahead of LeBron in MVP. The analogy isn't exactly perfect since LeBron will be 2nd instead of 3rd but you get my point: no one was arguing Davis (or Harden or Luka) as MVP at the end of the season just like no one was doing that with Ewing or Shaq. They will finish in the top 5 because 5 players have to but we know it was a two-way race this year, just as 08' was a three way race with Kobe, CP, KG and 93' was between Hakeem, Barkley, MJ. 94' was Pippen, Hakeem, Robinson.

I suppose you could say that whoever has a top 5 MVP finish is 'MVP worthy' but there's levels to it. My recollection of that year was Hakeem, Admiral and Scottie getting the MVP talk.

Agreed on levels. As to what I bolded, yeah, that is what I remember and that's what the SI, Tribune articles say and what Hubie Brown says at 0:27 that Pippen is a contender for MVP up there with Hakeem, Robinson. No mention of Shaq or Ewing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DjZ0bPR7Iw

We haven't seen anything in 22 pages showing a case for Ewing or Shaq as MVP being made at the time. It doesn't exist--they weren't in the discussion as we both recall and as the reporting that has been produced from then backs up.

Ewing plays in New York and isn't in the mix. That says it all.

[KD7]

#nopipnochip

[Phoenix]

Exactly. Yeah, Harden and Luka were in the mix earlier in the year but both faded. Davis got some talk as well. These players will finish 3rd-5th but we know the real race is Giannis vs. LeBron.

I wonder if Harden had kept up that 39ppg pace( remember the early season buzz was him doing 40 a game), and let's say the Rockets were in the ballpark of LA at least, how would that have played out? Once January hit it's like a switch literally flipped and Westbrook started scoring more than Harden, and all the talk on him died down. This was actually shaping up with some interesting storylines that have been lost with covid. Remember when Lillard went crazy on offense for a period after Kobe's passing? Luka was flirting with a triple double early on. Seems like ages ago now.

[HoopsNY]

Yeah, backed by 3 media sources from the time plus a quote from Ewing's own coach. Can you point to one that had Pippen and Ewing on par in the MVP race? Thanks in advance.

Drop the shtick. You guys put a narrative-based spin and then feign it as objective when in reality it was a 3 horse race and Ewing wasn't one of them, Pippen was. We are having this conversation because MJ stans successfully re-write history via mass repetition (it's mostly the MJ/Knicks crowd hyping Ewing in this thread). The same reason we have to talk about Pippen's scoring every day when you all will praise Miller as a great scorer for scoring 1 more point in the next breath.

When did I argue that the media didn't make it about 3 players? I don't care what the media said. That wasn't my argument.

You can say that it was a 3 man race as far as the media goes - sure, and you'd be right. But that doesn't mean that the media's choice stands up to scrutiny. Furthermore, I'm not debating that the voters got it wrong. Clearly they did as Hakeem won it, though Robinson really was neck and neck with him.

I'm merely saying that it is a conversation between Pippen, Shaq, and Ewing. When you consider the arguments for Ewing, then it clearly IS a conversation. Just because Pippen was the prevailing player in terms of voting, doesn't mean that it wasn't a conversation.

We're having this conversation now because someone made a post saying "1994 Pippen Should Have Been MVP." Yet you blame MJ stans? How ironic.

[Roundball_Rock]

I wonder if Harden had kept up that 39ppg pace( remember the early season buzz was him doing 40 a game), and let's say the Rockets were in the ballpark of LA at least, how would that have played out? Once January hit it's like a switch literally flipped and Westbrook started scoring more than Harden, and all the talk on him died down.

For sure. It would be a three way race then. Harden's numbers faded and the Rockets slipped to 6th in the West. If they remained in the hunt for 1st, Harden kept the big numbers he would have been up there. I think no one was going to beat Giannis but Harden could have been 2nd again if things broke that way.

Luka was getting a lot of MVP talk early in the year but I never thought his team would have the record to keep him viable.

Kawhi got some whispers early on but that faded quickly--he misses too many games.

Davis will be top 5--which is an achievement (it is rare for teammates to finish in the top 5) but hard to actually win when you are your team's second MVP candidate.

This was actually shaping up with some interesting storylines that have been lost with covid. Remember when Lillard went crazy on offense for a period after Kobe's passing? Luka was flirting with a triple double early on. Seems like ages ago now.

Yeah, hopefully the finish to the RS and the PO make up for it but who knows. MLB's start is not promising.

We're having this conversation now because someone made a post saying "1994 Pippen Should Have Been MVP." Yet you blame MJ stans? How ironic.

22 pages of MJ stans with a few Knicks fans sprinkled in arguing against Pippen but it has nothing to do with MJ. We still haven't seen a case for Ewing or Shaq--merely how they should have beaten that darn Pippen (awfully inconvenient he was a MVP candidate with MJ away). It has been 22 pages of "Why Pippen Sucks" or "Why Pippen had no case" versus a legitimate discussion of the 94' race.

Re Ewing or Shaq, it's like if someone says Davis or Luka should have been ahead of LeBron 26 years now when no one was saying that at the time.

[HoopsNY]

For sure. It would be a three way race then. Harden's numbers faded and the Rockets slipped to 6th in the West. If they remained in the hunt for 1st, Harden kept the big numbers he would have been up there. I think no one was going to beat Giannis but Harden could have been 2nd again if things broke that way.

Luka was getting a lot of MVP talk early in the year but I never thought his team would have the record to keep him viable.

Kawhi got some whispers early on but that faded quickly--he misses too many games.

Davis will be top 5--which is an achievement (it is rare for teammates to finish in the top 5) but hard to actually win when you are your team's second MVP candidate.



Yeah, hopefully the finish to the RS and the PO make up for it but who knows. MLB's start is not promising.



22 pages of MJ stans with a few Knicks fans sprinkled in arguing against Pippen but it has nothing to do with MJ. We still haven't seen a case for Ewing or Shaq--merely how they should have beaten that darn Pippen (awfully inconvenient he was a MVP candidate with MJ away). It has been 22 pages of "Why Pippen Sucks" or "Why Pippen had no case" versus a legitimate discussion of the 94' race.

Re Ewing or Shaq, it's like if someone says Davis or Luka should have been ahead of LeBron 26 years now when no one was saying that at the time.

You complain about unending pages, but do you realize it's arguably half your writing?

I already mentioned why Ewing and Shaq are in the conversation. If you don't agree, then fine. It doesn't make my view illegitimate or me trying to "further my agenda" (whatever that is). You're too paranoid. You need help.

[Roundball_Rock]

You posted a 1993 MVP race thread. How many of these people advocated for Ewing then? I believe zero even though his case was stronger then.

This is a great thread for many reasons. That's why I linked to it--which led you bring this dead thread up.

I already mentioned why Ewing and Shaq are in the conversation.

Like I said, we still haven't seen a case for them to actually be MVP. Pippen, Hakeem, Robinson have had actual cases presented. As to your posts:

An argument could be made for Pippen, though I don't think it's strong enough to overcome guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and maybe even Ewing (though I'd have to look at it more closely).

First of all, I didn't anoint Ewing ahead of Pippen. I said, "maybe even Ewing (though I would have to take a look at it)." Ewing averaged more points, rebounds, blocks, higher WS/48, with the #1 seed in the East, but he doesn't deserve a comparison at least?

None of this is a case for either Ewing or Shaq as MVP. It's the same line throughout this thread "Pippen shouldn't have even finished 3rd" from Team Jordan, which some take to greater extremes but the consistency is every MJ fan, outside of Phoenix who isn't part of the crusade, said Pippen was not only not MVP but should have finished worse than he actually did. (You also cherry picked statistics that favor Ewing --nothing about VORP, BPM, assists, steals conveniently.)

Shaq, Ewing are tools to get Pippen lower than his actual finish. We even heard Malone, Kemp (a 2nd option) come up in this thread--implying Pippen shouldn't have even been top 5. There is a Ewing thread up and none of this crowd is in it because they don't care about Ewing per se.

Ewing keeps getting credit for the Knicks doing something they didn't even do. Maybe that helps explain some of the delta 26 years later.

[insidious301]

I mean this year alone, is anyone else even being discussed from Giannis and Lebron? Nope. Usually by the time we get to April ( or March this year), 2 frontrunners clearly emerge with an odd 3rd darkhorse candidate as an upstart choice. You may start November with 4-5 names but that's whittled down. Luka was getting MVP talk in November.



I mean, I suppose you could say that whoever has a top 5 MVP finish is 'MVP worthy' but there's levels to it. My recollection of that year was Hakeem, Admiral and Scottie getting the MVP talk. Doesn't mean the other two aren't MVP caliber in a vacuum, but they didn't have strong cases over those three. And from what I see, usually by December the media starts picking out a few candidates and runs with it through seasons end. I don't recall someone sneaking in at the end who wasn't identified early on. Remember Steve Nash in 05? People were crowning him MVP before Christmas lol.

All good points. I had a problem with the "real" verbiage, as if Shaq or Ewing didn't get votes. Roundball clarified his position though and it is fair. Top 3 is the norm in an MVP race, no argument there. I also want to make it clear that I am not for Shaq and Ewing winning MVP. Rather with hindsight, both could have gotten more votes. Ewing mainly because of team record.

@HoopsNY good post

[Roundball_Rock]

What is odd is none of the people in this thread advocate for Ewing as a MVP candidate for 93'--when he had better team and individual results (and was 4th, not 5th, in MVP). Hoops did a thread on the 93' race--didn't even mention Ewing there. We have 22 pages with Ewing constantly coming up but the same logic evidently doesn't transfer to the 1993 season.

60 wins>57 wins
1 seed>2 seed
All-NBA 2nd team>0 All-NBA

But magically he has this great case for 94' but not for 93' as almost all these people with passionate opinions on the 94' race (only as it relates to the 3rd place finisher, evidently) have nothing to say about 93'.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d-have-went-to

[insidious301]

I never saw that thread. And to be fair, it doesn't look like it had many views or replies. Ewing should have gotten more credit that year. Especially now that you reminded me New York won more games in 93.