Kawhi can eliminate 15 different MVPS by the end of season

[aj1987]

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Are you mentally challenged? I never disputed that point. However, you said Kawhi was the best player in the series and it's not even remotely true.

The fact is that Lebron lost and Kawhi outplayed him in games 3-5.

That's your opinion and it's wrong. LeBron was better than Kawhi in games 4 and 5. That's a fact.

Kawhi matched or outplayed Lebron when the games were close

Again, it's factually not true. LeBron got outplayed by Kawhi in one game and that was G3.

and Lebron stat-padded 63% of his points in those games that's just the truth.

Wrong again. LeBron got the vast majority of his points when the games were still withing reach. He had like 3 PPG on worse than his regular shooting in 4th Q's.Kawhi wore him out and disrupted the Heat's offense like he was peak Pippen, the fact that you can't give him any credit for that and only blame Lebron's teammates for shooting low-quality shots that apparently the best playmaker to ever live set them up is just stupid. Isn't Lebron responsible for running the offense? How's the offense supposed to be effective when the guy who runs the thing averages 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers and is completely useless without the ball?[/quote]
Wrong again. LeBron got the vast majority of his points when the games were still withing reach. He had like 3 PPG on worse than his regular shooting in 4th Q's.

From a previous post of mine replying to Lazerus:

LeBron 2014

LeBron only played like 6 minutes a game in the 4th Q's and scored only ~3.5 points. Did his scoring in the first 3 Q's when the games were still within ~15 points. However, according to Lazerus, if a player tries to score when a team in trailing by 15 with a quarter and a half of basketball, it's stat padding, because apparently the game is already a blowout.

For instance, in his insane and absolutely retarded rambling, he fails to acknowledge the FACT that LeBron brought the Heat back to within 13 with like 8 minutes to go in the 3rd. That's when others started missing and the Spurs went on a 7-0 run.

Game 1 - LeBron single handedly kept the Heat in the game and the minute he goes out, Miami gets blown out. 2 point game with LeBron on the court. The moment he sits, the Spurs go on a 16-3 run in a span of about four minutes. As I said, without LeBron the Heat got torched by the Spurs.

Game 2 - LeBron plays an incredible game and CB comes through in the Clutch with the late 3. Miami barely win though. Even though Bosh came through in the clutch, dude was terrible (as was Wade) and let Duncan destroy him.

Game 3 - LeBron was terrible in the 4th without question. No excuses. Unlike you, I can admit when a player is terrible, you braindead retard.

Game 5 - So, according to you, LeBron was stat padding when he was trying to score midway through the 3rd with the Heat down 15, but he should’ve scored more with the Heat down 19 going into the 4th? You really do not understand what the term stat padding means, do you? Anyways, TP completely wrecked the Heat in the 4th Q that game. The Heat were never able to get closer than 16 and couldn’t get a stop defensively.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs were the overwhelming favorites to win the Finals. The Heat regressed offensively and defensively from the previous season and was terrible defensively.

[aj1987]

The Heat struggled offensively. The pace was virtually the same as the year before (88.1 in '13 vs. 87.4 in '14), but the Heat were worse on both ends. You're not winning a series averaging 91.6 ppg in the modern era, it was 2014, not 2004. Lebron had the most touches in Game 3 than he he had in any other game and only got 14 shots with 3 FTA & 7 turnovers, that's what a GOAT-level wing defender does. Wade had 22 on 67%, Lewis had 14 on 71% and they still get blown out, why? BAD DEFENSE, not because Lebron sucked, right? The 20 turnovers didn't affect the defense, right?

You do know that the 2012 Heat won 3 of their games averaging ~96 points, right? And yes, I did address the fact that Miami's offense wasn't that good, with Wade and the rest of the crew sucking hard. And yes, LeBron was definitely terrible in Game 3. I did address that. Unlike you, I don't cherrypick arguments or stats. Funny how you completely ignored this part:


They had FG attempts of 62, 71, and 75. To put those numbers in perspective, the #1 offense in the league that season took 82.5 shots a game to score 107.9 points per game. The #1 offense scored 1.30 points per field goal attempt. The Heat were at 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

Sure the offense could've been better and hence why I said this:

hat's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

[ImKobe]

You do know that the 2012 Heat won 3 of their games averaging ~96 points, right? And yes, I did address the fact that Miami's offense wasn't that good, with Wade and the rest of the crew sucking hard. And yes, LeBron was definitely terrible in Game 3. I did address that. Unlike you, I don't cherrypick arguments or stats. Funny how you completely ignored this part:


They had FG attempts of 62, 71, and 75. To put those numbers in perspective, the #1 offense in the league that season took 82.5 shots a game to score 107.9 points per game. The #1 offense scored 1.30 points per field goal attempt. The Heat were at 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

Sure the offense could've been better and hence why I said this:

hat's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

Maybe Lebron being defended well by the opposing team had an effect on the Heat's offense? Why are you overlooking this point? They were forcing the ball out of his hands, the Heat had no counter, other than to screen whenever Leonard was on James, but he Spurs' defensive rotations were on point and they didn't get many quality looks, it's not like Lebron was all-time great passing the ball in the series and guys just bricked open shots, the Spurs played great defense.

Ok, so the 2012 Heat won 3 games averaging 96 ppg, they didn't get to 96 points in any of their losses, they were at 72 points in Game 5 with under 6 minutes to go, bad offense. You're not winning these games, even if the Spurs score 10 less points than they did. To not break 100 points once in 5 games is just bad, and it's not like the pace was much worse than in the RS, they played at a 91.2 pace (27th).

Looking at Game 5, the Heat completely fall apart offensively in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. They don't score a point for the first 4 minutes of the 3rd and Lebron doesn't score until they're down 21 points with 4:39 left, it was a 7-point game to start the 2nd half, that's as much on the offense as the defense, you can't win if you don't score. And the blowouts somewhat helped skew the numbers as well with the 3rd stringers playing significant minutes in the 4th as a result.

[aj1987]

Maybe Lebron being defended well by the opposing team had an effect on the Heat's offense? Why are you overlooking this point? They were forcing the ball out of his hands, the Heat had no counter, other than to screen whenever Leonard was on James, but he Spurs' defensive rotations were on point and they didn't get many quality looks, it's not like Lebron was all-time great passing the ball in the series and guys just bricked open shots, the Spurs played great defense.

Ok, so the 2012 Heat won 3 games averaging 96 ppg, they didn't get to 96 points in any of their losses, they were at 72 points in Game 5 with under 6 minutes to go, bad offense. You're not winning these games, even if the Spurs score 10 less points than they did. To not break 100 points once in 5 games is just bad, and it's not like the pace was much worse than in the RS, they played at a 91.2 pace (27th).

Looking at Game 5, the Heat completely fall apart offensively in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. They don't score a point for the first 4 minutes of the 3rd and Lebron doesn't score until they're down 21 points with 4:39 left, it was a 7-point game to start the 2nd half, that's as much on the offense as the defense, you can't win if you don't score. And the blowouts somewhat helped skew the numbers as well with the 3rd stringers playing significant minutes in the 4th as a result.

Are you arguing with yourself? I never said the offense wasn't bad. TRY TO READ. The defense was a bigger problem. That's my point. I literally even pointed out that the player on the Heat sucked offensively.

That's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

READ.

Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

[ImKobe]

Are you arguing with yourself? I never said the offense wasn't bad. TRY TO READ. The defense was a bigger problem. That's my point. I literally even pointed out that the player on the Heat sucked offensively.

That's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

READ.

Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

Lebron's the best playmaker ever, but he didn't get his teammates in good spots, that's why he averaged just 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers (20 asts, 19 TOs), offense was a big issue in 2 out of the 3 straight losses, it's not like the Heat were hanging in there at any point in the 2nd half scoring-wise.

Still, their defense could have been better but it would have made little to no impact on the series with how poor they were offensively. Who was Lebron guarding btw? The guy who averaged 18 on 75%TS and had the best ORTG for starters (136) on either team?

[aj1987]

Lebron's the best playmaker ever, but he didn't get his teammates in good spots, that's why he averaged just 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers (20 asts, 19 TOs), offense was a big issue in 2 out of the 3 straight losses, it's not like the Heat were hanging in there at any point in the 2nd half scoring-wise.

I never said the offense was perfect. Also, I never said LeBron's the best playmaker ever. He did find people. They weren't hitting their shots. If LeBron was such a statpadder, as all you people claim, he would've active looked for assists, no? Also, LeBron's time of possession was actually lower than TP's in the Finals by a lot. Accounting for minutes, the gap becomes significantly larger.

LeBron also upped his passes from an average of 49.6 in the RS to 50.6. He had 10.6 potential assists per game in the Finals, compared to 12.6 in the RS, which is not a massive difference, considering the variation in play.

Still, their defense could have been better but it would have made little to no impact on the series with how poor they were offensively. Who was Lebron guarding btw? The guy who averaged 18 on 75%TS and had the best ORTG for starters (136) on either team?

If you think 18 PPG on 75% is the sole reason why Miami lost, I don't even know where to begin. Again:


Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

That Heat team outside LeBron was just old and completely trash. LeBron's defense was subpar, but the rest were even worse.

[ImKobe]

I never said the offense was perfect. Also, I never said LeBron's the best playmaker ever. He did find people. They weren't hitting their shots. If LeBron was such a statpadder, as all you people claim, he would've active looked for assists, no? Also, LeBron's time of possession was actually lower than TP's in the Finals by a lot. Accounting for minutes, the gap becomes significantly larger.

LeBron also upped his passes from an average of 49.6 in the RS to 50.6. He had 10.6 potential assists per game in the Finals, compared to 12.6 in the RS, which is not a massive difference, considering the variation in play.


If you think 18 PPG on 75% is the sole reason why Miami lost, I don't even know where to begin. Again:


Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

That Heat team outside LeBron was just old and completely trash. LeBron's defense was subpar, but the rest were even worse.

Wow, again, everything outside of Lebron is trash and he gets no blame because he boosted his numbers down 15-20+ points.

Lebron's defense was sub-par (though a role player he was guarding turned into an all-star), but everyone else was even worse. Seriously? Did we watch the same series here? Did Duncan average 20/10? Did Parker average 25? Did Manu average 20? Their offense was terrible because Lebron couldn't handle the defense and Miami had no counter to what the Spurs were doing against Lebron, it led to a lot of bad shots and really poor ball movement, hence why his teammates struggled scoring.

What's the biggest difference between Games 1-2 & 3-5? Kawhi turns into a star. Maybe this series could have gone 6-7 games had Lebron not developed cramps in Game 1, though they did already blow the lead and Lebron only scored 2 points on 1/3 shooting in 5 minutes in 4Q.

[RRR3]

ImKobe has one of the worst cases of LeBron Derangement Syndrome I’ve ever seen. Yikes.

[insidious301]

You are delusional or you didn't watch a minute of the 2014 playoffs. Manu was used as a role player post 2011 and was no longer a star. He was a guy who could maybe steal you a game in a series but that's it. Kawhi on the other hand was the leader in GmSc in 2nd round, leader in minutes in 3rd round, leader in GmSc in 4th round. I don't know what to tell you. I like Manu as well and have stuck up for him in the past but you're off base here.

This post only tells us you cannot keep a straight criteria. First you wanted to single-out the finals, but after that didn't work, now its the playoffs. In the playoffs, Manu equaled Kawhi's scoring, averaged more assists, averaged a higher BPM-PER-VORP. That is in 26 minutes to Kawhi's 32. The games are all on youtube. Go watch them again and then you'll understand why you were wrong. And why the numbers favor Manu. Beating 9 MVPs is not a record by the way, so your OP is incorrect.

[aj1987]

Wow, again, everything outside of Lebron is trash and he gets no blame because he boosted his numbers down 15-20+ points.

When did I ever say LeBron gets no blame? I literally said a dozen times that his game 3 was atrocious. Also, I literally just said LeBron's defense was subpar.

Lebron's defense was sub-par (though a role player he was guarding turned into an all-star), but everyone else was even worse. Seriously? Did we watch the same series here? Did Duncan average 20/10? Did Parker average 25? Did Manu average 20? Their offense was terrible because Lebron couldn't handle the defense and Miami had no counter to what the Spurs were doing against Lebron, it led to a lot of bad shots and really poor ball movement, hence why his teammates struggled scoring.

I said subpar, because Kawhi was hitting everything. Dude was shooting lights out. He was hitting shots with LeBron all over him. He was taking and making ridiculous shots. Some of those shots, nobody could've guarded him better and Kawhi was still hitting them.

You OBVIOUSLY did not watch the series, so try watching this short clip at the least. Should be more your speed. It's only about 5 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8U5bwe9TS0


LeBron also upped his passes from an average of 49.6 in the RS to 50.6. He had 10.6 potential assists per game in the Finals, compared to 12.6 in the RS, which is not a massive difference, considering the variation in play.

LeBron's time of possession was actually lower than TP's in the Finals by a lot. Accounting for minutes, the gap becomes significantly larger. LeBron was at aroun 6.5 minutes a game and TP was at around 7.8 minutes a game. While playing significantly fewer minutes.

So yeah, did TP's ball domination not kill the Spurs' ball movement?

As I said, stop using buzz words and try to come up with FACTUAL arguments.

What's the biggest difference between Games 1-2 & 3-5? Kawhi turns into a star. Maybe this series could have gone 6-7 games had Lebron not developed cramps in Game 1, though they did already blow the lead and Lebron only scored 2 points on 1/3 shooting in 5 minutes in 4Q.

Not really. Even if Miami wins G1, they weren't going to sustain it. Even in 2013, the Spurs absolutely torched the Heat from deep with Neal and Green being in FMVP contention, along with Parker, before LeBron decided to take over. The Spurs Spurs had a ton of great shooters and it showed. Thankfully, they completely cooled down in games 6 and 7 in the 2013 Finals.

Miami lost those 3 games by an average of ~20 points a game. Even if Kawhi scored 10 fewer points a game, the Spurs would've still comfortably won. They had a much much better team.

[ImKobe]

Miami lost those 3 games by an average of ~20 points a game. Even if Kawhi scored 10 fewer points a game, the Spurs would've still comfortably won. They had a much much better team.

I agree with this, which is why I was more on the side of looking at how Miami's offense underperformed here, hard to win scoring in the high 80s/low 90s in 2014. Spurs had the better team, I don't think Lebron really underperformed that much in the Finals overall, but it was Kawhi's coming out party and he should at least deserve FMVP credit, though it obviously doesn't stack up with the best, it holds about as much weight as Iguodala's.

[aj1987]

I agree with this, which is why I was more on the side of looking at how Miami's offense underperformed here, hard to win scoring in the high 80s/low 90s in 2014. Spurs had the better team, I don't think Lebron really underperformed that much in the Finals overall, but it was Kawhi's coming out party and he should at least deserve FMVP credit, though it obviously doesn't stack up with the best, it holds about as much weight as Iguodala's.

Bruh, I literally have no idea what you're arguing with me about RN.

[Phoenix]

The Spurs shooting percentages in the 2014 finals..... 53% from the field, 47% from 3.You're gonna have to be like....2017 Warriors level to keep up with that level of shooting. They shot well throughout the players but their offense easily peaked vs Miami. Better offense in response from Miami only reduces the pain inflicted in that series. They couldn't stop the Spurs first and foremost. Usually' if you can hold down the fort defensively you can give yourself a glimmer of hope that the ball bounces your way at the right moment. The Spurs simply left no wiggle room for something like the end of game 6 2013 to shift the series momentum.

[Roundball_Rock]

People also act like the teams were the same in both 13' and 14'. In 13' the Heat won 66 games and the Spurs 58 games; in 14' the Heat slipped to 54 wins and the Spurs improved to 62 wins. That is a swing (from Miami's perspective) from +8 to -8.

We saw what Miami was when LeBron left in 15' and they went from EC champs to 10th place.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This post only tells us you cannot keep a straight criteria. First you wanted to single-out the finals, but after that didn't work, now its the playoffs. In the playoffs, Manu equaled Kawhi's scoring, averaged more assists, averaged a higher BPM-PER-VORP. That is in 26 minutes to Kawhi's 32. The games are all on youtube. Go watch them again and then you'll understand why you were wrong. And why the numbers favor Manu. Beating 9 MVPs is not a record by the way, so your OP is incorrect.

This entire thread is about discussing the specific series of MVPS that Kawhi eliminated. You're the one who kept bringing up the cringe worthy "Manu was best player entire 2014 playoffs" argument.