Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[goozeman]

Career Rankings

PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129

Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250

True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250
Horace Grant......NR top 250

BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:

What players were most impacted by the changes?

Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton, who was 3.5 under the old system and is now 6.7. He's aided by the changes in the way the assist and rebound terms interact. Further, the old system said "no rebounds = bad defender." BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."

When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[ZenMaster7210]

[NBAGOAT]

no shit the 6 stats you used correlate with each other. most of them are only measuring offense. per is definitely a metric focused on offense. ws is based on ortg and drtg, it's a waste of time to list ortg and ws.

[goozeman]

no shit the 6 stats you used correlate with each other. most of them are only measuring offense. per is definitely a metric focused on offense. ws is based on ortg and drtg, it's a waste of time to list ortg and ws.

Translation: Yea, all those stats are legit but they are mostly offensive stats so they don't count, lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is the OP 3ball or Soundwave?

They like to cherry pick advanced stats only when convenient. Just yesterday we saw prime Pippen crushes prime Ewing across the board in advanced stats. That didn't count, doe. Nor does it count that every advanced stat has Pippen near the top for his era.

All this--a daily thread or two to declare "Pippen sucks"--to diminish Pippen and Jordan is still 1-9. He won 6 rangz with a team that was good without him (hell, their offense w/out MJ>their offense w/out Pippen and their alleged fictional offensive ineptness is the thing we hear 24/7 from MJ stains). Sorry, but MJ stains can't erase these facts. Get over it. Maybe someday MJ can get the Hornets out the first round--eventually.

LeBron (long after he played with Wade ) is facing a team with Westbrook, a MVP, as a sidekick. Not exactly John Starks. #Context

The BPM thing is comical. Dishonest MJ fans will deceive--that's all they know to do, but we went over this with OBPM--where again Pippen was elite. MJ stains dismissed that too.

Let's compare OBPM--so no steals in the mix--for Pippen vs. Ewing, a MJ stain favorite and the best player on the only 90's team to consistently give the Bulls comp.

Prime OBPM for Pippen: 3.0
Prime OBPM for Ewing: 2.0

Advanced plus/minus is a great way to suss out a player's impact. Pippen peaked at #2 in that in 95'.

I am sorry MJ quit as MVP instead of trying to win without Pippen or kept opposing trades for Pippen. He clearly didn't feel like he could win without Pippen (not a "challenge" he wanted--a guy who loved challenges). His fans are heartbroken over it to this day.

[tpols]

Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

Pippy poo

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Jordan is better than Lebron, but comparing Pippen to Bosh and Love is idiotic. Pippen won more playoff series as a first option without Jordan in the one full year Jordan sat out than Bosh/Love have won without Lebron in their entire career.

Scottie Pippen was a damn good player who was 3rd in MVP voting during the year without Jordan and led them to 55 games. Chris Bosh and Kevin Love aren't even on that same planet. As an overall player, the only years Lebron has played with someone better than Pippen was 2010-2011 Dwade and Anthony Davis this year. Dwade certainly wasn't better than Pippen at the end of his run in Miami and Kyrie was a great scorer, but not the overall player Pippen was. Michael Jordan wouldn't win sh*t if Chris Bosh was his second option.

[NBAGOAT]

Translation: Yea, all those stats are legit but they are mostly offensive stats so they don't count, lol.

they do count but your conclusion is lebron had better offensive teammates. you really dont need advanced stats to make that conclusion. also no not all of them are legit, it's kind of well known ws per and ortg arent very good anymore, you're stuck in 2015 if you're using them heavily. if you just want to look at just box score stuff, just use per 75 and ts%.

[goozeman]

Is the OP 3ball or Soundwave?

They like to cherry pick advanced stats only when convenient. Just yesterday we saw prime Pippen crushes prime Ewing. That didn't count, doe.

So "cherry picking stats" means posting almost all relevant statistical data for a player's entire career now? I even threw the fake-Pippen/Lebron fans a bone, and dropped your favorite metric BPM in there just to be fair.

[insidious301]

LeBron has played with better individual talent. No argument there. Many of these stats however don't take into account defense. And we know that Pippen was the best wing defender of his era. Another poster, it was either Roundball or Kuniva, posted RAPM numbers for Pippen from 1996-1998. He finished around Top 5 during that span. And in the playoffs even better. When LeBron won his championships, his second best player never had that kind of impact.

they do count but your conclusion is lebron had better offensive teammates. you really dont need advanced stats to make that conclusion. also no not all of them are legit, it's kind of well known ws per and ortg arent very good anymore, you're stuck in 2015 if you're using them heavily. if you just want to look at just box score stuff, just use per 75 and ts%.

ORTG & winshares don't adjust for teammates or lineups like the advanced plus minus stats do. Pretty big flaw.

[Roundball_Rock]

they do count but your conclusion is lebron had better offensive teammates.

Was it Miami or Chicago who was top 10 in offense without MJ/LeBron? Miami wasn't even top 20 when LeBron left. #TheInconvenientTruth

As to defense, well, Chicago was #2 w/out MJ. Miami? Cleveland?

This is why MJ stains have to repeat the same BS on a loop: to create an alternate reality. Chicago was a competent offense and elite defense w/out MJ. Miami? Cleveland? Not so much...but the guy whose team was #21 on offense and #21 on defense had a better team than the other guy.

#10 on offense. #2 on defense. Cold, hard facts. We can resume the Jordan stain fun house mirror of deception, though, for the rest of the thread--where #10 on O/#2 on D never happened.

Jordan had more help than LeBron relative to the era where guys could be the best player on a contender but would be the #3 option today on a contender (e.g., Klay=Miller) because teams are more stacked (90's and 00's were outliers). Their teams' performance without them speak for themselves. We are always in a twilight zone of speculation when we saw those teams without them. They weren't even close.

[insidious301]

Let's compare OBPM--so no steals in the mix--for Pippen vs. Ewing, a MJ stain favorite and the best player on the only 90's team to consistently give the Bulls comp.

Prime OBPM for Pippen: 3.0
Prime OBPM for Ewing: 2.0

Why do Jordan fans ignore this? Could it be because Ewing was on the Knicks who were Chicago's best comp? Nah! Probably just a coincidence man!

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do Jordan fans ignore this? Could it be because Ewing was on the Knicks who were Chicago's best comp? Nah! Probably just a coincidence man!

They know all this. They aren't here to discuss. They do here what they do all over the internet: deceive and destroy MJ's teammates to make it look like MJ won 6 rangz by himself and to mute the argument that MJ was on a milk carton for team success before he had a strong team around him (that LeBron keeps succeeding wherever he goes, whoever the coach, whoever his teammates makes them even more insecure). They have an obvious answer to why MJ did nothing: his team sucked (27 win pace w/out him in 86'; in 94' it was 55 and 63 when Pippen/Grant both played--kind of a big change, no? ) but the logical response is the team became good when they did win. They can't abide that so here we are each day.

The sad thing is they are having some success. They set the terms of the debate because they flood the internet day in, day out with their BS--unrestrained by shame or any connection to reality. The Bulls had a top 10 offense without Jordan. Yet we hear over and over and over the team was inept offensively without the Lord and Savior Michael Jeffrey Jordan. We hear people who were MVP candidates were Iggy and hear people who were never even close to MVP candidates were Curry from the Jordan stan funhouse mirrors.

[RRR3]

Pippy poo

Are you five years old?

[insidious301]

They know all this. They aren't here to discuss. They do here what they do all over the internet: deceive and destroy MJ's teammates.

The sad thing is they are having some success. They set the terms of the debate because they flood the internet day in, day out with their BS--unrestrained by shame or any connection to reality. The Bulls had a top 10 offense without Jordan. Yet we hear over and over and over the team was inept offensively without the Lord and Savior Michael Jeffrey Jordan. We hear people who were MVP candidates were Iggy and hear people who were never even close to MVP candidates were Curry from the Jordan stan funhouse mirrors.

I couldn't agree more. What is the obsession with w/s per 48 btw? I have seen that 3ball poster use it frequently. And now the OP. Do they not know Prime Pippen>Ewing in winshares and w/s per 48? Pippen also had a better ORTG, another one of their favorite stats. ORTG might be the worst because of the similarities it has to raw plus minus. Maybe they do know all of this like you are saying, and are just here to create their own reality. Whatever the case being it is cult-like.