What's the case for Lebron over Kareem?

[warriorfan]

The only reason I'm responding to this drivel is because there are people who actually believe this.

Other than Erving there was no other superstar in the ABA. There are lots of guys who went from ABA superstars to mere all-stars after the merger like Gilmore, Issel, McGinnis, Counts etc. and a bunch of young guys who started in the ABA (Moses, Gervin, Thompson) but those guys didn't enter their prime until after the merger. The existence of the ABA had minor impact on the NBA except right prior to the merger. The ABA was a fun league with a multi-colored ball, high pace, and no defense. More flash than substance while the NBA was a bit "boring" but the effectiveness of the best NBA players was easily above those of the best ABA players. Even Dr J in his prime would have no chance of taking MVP's from Kareem. Prime Kareem >> Prime Dr J ... The Doctor never put up very impressive numbers in the NBA. He was definitely good among the top 20-30 players the NBA has ever seen but he was nowhere near a GOAT-level peak like Kareem was.

Kareem faced a ridiculous amount of competition at the C position which are the guys that he was matched up with. Early decade, it was Reed, Wilt, Thurmond, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Lanier then mid to late decade still Cowens, Unseld and Lanier but also McAdoo, Walton, Moses, Sikma, Gilmore... Let's stop with the BS narratives. Apart from maybe the 90's, the 70's were the strongest era for centers in league history.



Because he was 2nd in scoring (27.7 ppg) on a whopping +6.3 rTS. He was 1st in rebounding (one of the best seasons in terms of defensive rebounds ever), 1st in blocks and even had 5.0 apg as a center. Kareem in 1975-76 had a ridiculously great season but his team sucked balls. And still his team missed the playoffs with the 4th best record and 3rd best SRS in the conference because of stupid seedings.

The first year of the ABA/NBA merger the Denver Nuggets had the best defense in the entire league.

Your narrative isn’t accurate.

[dankok8]

The first year of the ABA/NBA merger the Denver Nuggets had the best defense in the entire league.

Your narrative isn’t accurate.

Yes it is accurate that ABA was a no defense league. Here are the league averages:

1976 NBA: 98.3 DRtg, 105.5 pace
1976 ABA: 104.1 DRtg, 106.9 pace

The worst defense in the NBA was equivalent to the best defense in the ABA. That's how huge the gap was.

[John8204]

Spencer Haywood - ABA MVP (1970) - 4 time All-star (1972-1975)
Rick Barry - ABA Champion (1969) - 6 time All-Star, 3 time All-NBA, NBA Champion
George McGinnis - 2 time ABA champion - 3 time NBA All-Star, All-NBA
Julius Erving 2 time ABA Champion, - 1 time NBA Champion, 2 time ABA MVP 1 time NBA MVP
George Gervin - 3 time ABA All-Star, 9 time NBA All-Star, 4 time NBA scoring champion, 5 All-NBA first team
Connie Hawkins - ABA Champion, All-NBA first team
Artis Gilmore - ABA Champion, 6 time NBA all-star
Moses Malone - ABA All-Star, 3 time NBA MVP, NBA Champion, 12 time NBA All-Star 4 times All-NBA first team
Billy Cunningham - NBA Champion, ABA MVP
Dan Issell - ABA Champion, NBA All-Star
Bobby Jones - ABA All-Star, NBA Champion
Maurice Lucas - ABA All-Star, All-NBA

[warriorfan]

Yes it is accurate that ABA was a no defense league. Here are the league averages:

1976 NBA: 98.3 DRtg, 105.5 pace
1976 ABA: 104.1 DRtg, 106.9 pace

The worst defense in the NBA was equivalent to the best defense in the ABA. That's how huge the gap was.

year before merger nuggets had the 4th rated defense in the aba, next year they were number 1 in the nba.

care to explain?

[dankok8]

Spencer Haywood - ABA MVP (1970) - 4 time All-star (1972-1975)
Rick Barry - ABA Champion (1969) - 6 time All-Star, 3 time All-NBA, NBA Champion
George McGinnis - 2 time ABA champion - 3 time NBA All-Star, All-NBA
Julius Erving 2 time ABA Champion, - 1 time NBA Champion, 2 time ABA MVP 1 time NBA MVP
George Gervin - 3 time ABA All-Star, 9 time NBA All-Star, 4 time NBA scoring champion, 5 All-NBA first team
Connie Hawkins - ABA Champion, All-NBA first team
Artis Gilmore - ABA Champion, 6 time NBA all-star
Moses Malone - ABA All-Star, 3 time NBA MVP, NBA Champion, 12 time NBA All-Star 4 times All-NBA first team
Billy Cunningham - NBA Champion, ABA MVP
Dan Issell - ABA Champion, NBA All-Star
Bobby Jones - ABA All-Star, NBA Champion
Maurice Lucas - ABA All-Star, All-NBA

You just about dug your own grave with that argument.

Guys like Gervin, Moses, Jones and Lucas were very young in the ABA. They entered their primes in the NBA.

Cunningham spent only two seasons in the ABA, the second of which he got injured and was never the same player.

How let's talk about guys who were in their primes in both leagues...

Spencer Haywood was ABA MVP as a rookie. In the NBA maybe a top 20 player at his best.

Connie Hawkins was ABA MVP as a rookie. In the NBA maybe a top 20 player at his best.

George McGinnis was ABA MVP/top 5 player averaging 30/14/6. Came to the NBA and put up 23/13/5 on worse efficiency. Again maybe a top 20 player at his best.

Artis Gilmore was ABA MVP and probably best player after Erving at the time of the merger. He came to the NBA and became merely a top 20 player.

Dan Issel was 1x All-ABA 1st team and 4x All-ABA 2nd team. Came to the NBA and made 1 all-star game. Maybe a top 20 player for a year.

Hell even Dr J...

Julius Erving was 2x ABA MVP and best player in that league. Although he had by far the best NBA career even his play was a far cry from his ABA dominance. Stats dropped across the board.

I've got a few more guys to throw in there...

Jimmy Jones was 6x ABA all-star and 4th all-time in ABA Win Shares. Comes to the NBA at age 29 and becomes a role player.

Zelmo Beaty was at best a top 20 player in the NBA. Goes to the ABA and finishes 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting.

TL DR

A lot of ABA MVP's coming to the NBA and becoming mere top 20 players and in most cases for 1-2 seasons.

year before merger nuggets had the 4th rated defense in the aba, next year they were number 1 in the nba.

care to explain?

Can you explain the much bigger league-wide trend that the NBA was 6 points better in DRtg compared to the ABA?

[John8204]

You do understand that by saying that 10 players are "top twenty" in the NBA that's half the competition Kareem didn't face the point of the argument.

you do get that right but just being insulting and weird about it.

[Lebron23]

LeBron have more finals MVP than Kareem.

/End Thread.

[dankok8]

You do understand that by saying that 10 players are "top twenty" in the NBA that's half the competition Kareem didn't face the point of the argument.

you do get that right but just being insulting and weird about it.

These guys weren't all top 20 in the same season.

Like I said in an earlier post. The existence of the ABA did hurt the NBA but only in the mid 70's from 1974 to 1976. The weak 70's argument falls flat on its face because what's the argument for the early 70's or post-merger 70's being weak. There isn't one...

[John8204]

These guys weren't all top 20 in the same season.

Like I said in an earlier post. The existence of the ABA did hurt the NBA but only in the mid 70's from 1974 to 1976. The weak 70's argument falls flat on its face because what's the argument for the early 70's or post-merger 70's being weak. There isn't one...

It really doesn't because while you say oh this guy isn't top twenty and this guy isn't top ten and they were so young. If you actually look at the greatest players from that era...half of them played in the ABA

https://www.basketball-reference.com...abdulka01.html
Kareem went from 30PPG to 25PPG to 20PPG
Kareem went from 15 Rebounds to 10 rebounds
Kareem APG went from 5 to 3 to 2

[Shooter]

7,631

/thread

[Lakers Legend#32]

There is none.

Kareem could not win till Magic came to LA.