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  1. #31
    Local High School Star Shaquille O'Neal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by basketballcat View Post
    Oh, that's fine. We are free to choose our own criteria. It's actually good to iron out exactly what somebody means when they say GOAT. If somebody says Jordan and his marketing team greatly increased NBA's revenue, that's why he's my GOAT. No arguments there.

    What I find irksome are conversations like below.

    A: LeBron is the GOAT because he's the all time leading scorer.

    B: Nah, it's all about winning. Jordan is the GOAT with 6 rings.

    A: Wait, that means Russell is the GOAT because he has 11 rings.

    B: That doesn't count, <insert reason here>
    *goalpost shifted*

    ... <10 pages of arguments later>

    *still changing goalposts, making GOAT criteria on the fly just to stick with original GOAT choice*

    That's what I'm going after: criteria FIRST, applied consistently, then work out who the GOAT is. If we can't have all the same criteria, then at least have a consistent set of criteria for yourself from the beginning. What ends up happening is that people keeps modifying their criteria just so their favourite player comes out on top. It's disingenuous.
    It's not goalpost shifted though. Russell was a great player in a league with 8 teams, and most of the great players all were on his team. 1961 there were 9 Hall of Fame players on the Celtics. Russell only scored 15.7 points per game for his career - great defensive player, but not exactly lighting it up offensively.
    The GOAT is clearly Jordan - he scored 30 PPG on 50% shooting for his career, elevated his stats in the playoffs and beat the most 60 win teams. Every other person has major flaws in their GOAT case - Russell was only a 15 PPG game scorer, KAJ only won once in the 70's and didn't do crap until Magic came along, both he and Magic got swept in the finals, etc.
    Lebron - 2007, 2011, 2014, 2018, 2010, too many years having done less with a stacked team. 0-8 in finals tying or game winning shots, 4 chips in 20 years (25% record) puts him around 10-11 just behind Kobe who has 5.

    Meaning it's a combination of all of the above. Scoring & winning. Just getting titles won't get it, else Horry would be above Jordan. Scoring in bunches won't get it, else Wilt would be the GOAT with a 50 PPG season. It's the combination of both. I thought most people agreed on the combination of these two things?

    There's only 1 player in the NBA who has:
    10 scoring titles
    5th FVMP ring
    6th FVMP ring
    Lead a 70+ win to win the title (followed up by doing the same with a 69 win team)
    College & Olympic championships on top of all the above.

    That is easily why MJ is the greatest basketball player ever - the combination of all the above.
    Last edited by Shaquille O'Neal; 03-27-2023 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #32
    Please clap. Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Winning with different franchises is an unfair standard. To many all time greats spent all of their good years in one team for that to be relevant.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by basketballcat View Post
    Here we go: intangibles, eye test, ...

    Duncan has +1 FMVP, +1 MVP, +3 All Defensive selections. Duncan is universally considered as the best PF ever and the best Spur ever. Kobe is not even the best SG ever nor the best Laker ever.
    hey bitch, the fact that you have to argue that lequeen diva james is a goat shows that you are wrong ****ing ******. I hate people like you bruh, seriously, if I saw you in person, I would whip your ass, I ****ING HATE you

  4. #34
    College star
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green View Post
    Winning with different franchises is an unfair standard. To many all time greats spent all of their good years in one team for that to be relevant.
    Lol is but another branstan adding bs criteria

  5. #35
    National High School Star
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    every player's worst nightmare

    this dude shows up at the playground and says you aren't as good as you think you are


  6. #36
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 1987_Lakers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaquille O'Neal View Post
    It's not goalpost shifted though. Russell was a great player in a league with 8 teams, and most of the great players all were on his team. 1961 there were 9 Hall of Fame players on the Celtics. Russell only scored 15.7 points per game for his career - great defensive player, but not exactly lighting it up offensively.
    I like how you bring up all the "hof" players he played with, but fail to mention some of them are in the HOF just because they played with Russell. Seriously, K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey & Tom Sanders are all in the HOF, none of them never even made an All-star team.

    The other Hofers he played with?
    Russell won 7 rings without Bill Sharman
    Won 5 rings without Cousy & Havlicek
    Won 3 rings without Heinsohn

    The only HOF player who played with Russell on most of those chips was Sam Jones, but he wasn't even an All-star player until his 5th season in the league.

    By 1965 or so, his teams were even with Wilt's teams talent wise, and he was still beating him most of the time. You also brush off how much of a defensive force Russell was, not only was he "great", but his defensive impact has never been duplicated by any other player in history.
    Last edited by 1987_Lakers; 03-27-2023 at 12:12 PM.

  7. #37
    NBA lottery pick Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by post View Post
    every player's worst nightmare

    this dude shows up at the playground and says you aren't as good as you think you are


  8. #38
    Decent playground baller
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green View Post
    Winning with different franchises is an unfair standard. To many all time greats spent all of their good years in one team for that to be relevant.
    At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

    Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4.

    ---------

    Is the Earth flat?

    Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. Put your measurement instruments away, nerd."
    Last edited by basketballcat; 03-27-2023 at 12:28 PM.

  10. #40
    NBA rookie of the year Overdrive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by basketballcat View Post
    At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.
    That's exactly what narrative is all about. One circumstance that couldn't be met due to career path, but is met by another makes him greater.

    You cried for objective standards. That's wins, stats and accolades. And even stats could be warped depending on era.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    These are exactly narrative points. So at pont 5 you found out the guy you made this alt for has no shot at GOAT under an objective criteria so you need to push some narrative? I thought you wanted to leave that out?
    Then leave those out.

  12. #42
    NBA lottery pick Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by basketballcat View Post
    At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.
    It's getting sad. MJ established something in Chicago. Why would he run away to prove something that wouldn't be in question until after he retired? Who runs away from a winning team that he helped establish? LeBron didn't. Let's be honest. LeBron ran from Cleveland because he couldn't establish a dynasty. And the Spurs ran him out of Miami. And GS ran him out of Cleveland the second time. Then a real conference forced him to cry for AD. Let's be real. Now running is a virtue?

  13. #43
    NBA rookie of the year Overdrive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by basketballcat View Post
    Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

    Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4.

    ---------

    Is the Earth flat?

    Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. Put your measurement instruments away, nerd."
    Teacher: What is 1+1?

    basketballcat: 2, however Lebron's 1 is fancier so it's 3, but only for him.

  14. #44
    NBA rookie of the year Overdrive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by basketballcat View Post
    Then leave those out.
    You mean the objective criteras so we can go back to narratives agin?

  15. #45
    Decent playground baller
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    Default Re: Consistent GOAT criteria

    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    That's exactly what narrative is all about. One circumstance that couldn't be met due to career path, but is met by another makes him greater.

    You cried for objective standards. That's wins, stats and accolades. And even stats could be warped depending on era.
    Some say, KG would have been as successful as Duncan had he been with the Spurs. Maybe. Duncan actually was successful. KG with Spurs = high probability, TD with Spurs = certainty, as it actually happened. Certainty > high probability.

    Jordan had years without Pippen. All he managed is 1-9 in the playoffs. Some might say that he was too young. Magic & Duncan were alphas from the get go.

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