Jokic's title run when compared to other all time greats

[DarkSephiroth]

As Jokic just won this incredible championship, it made me think about most impressive runs in NBA history and his place among big men. I'd place this run second overall to Hakeem Olajuwon in terms of a hard carry peak level ring. People tend to overrate career and underrate peak level when comparing all time greats so I'm going to throw out some unpopular opinions here.

1. Bill Russell is the most overrated player of all time. I do not credit his 11 rings in an 8 team league when he was NEVER ONCE the best player in the league (Career 44% FG, 56% FT.) Not to mention he was one of like 5 Black dudes in a league where people needed to have second jobs to survive. Switch Wilt with Russell on the stacked 7 HOF'er Celtics with the greatest coach ever in Red Auerbach and he'd have won a ring every year he played. I respect what he's done for the game, but as a basketball purist... Get outta here, you can't tell me he's better than Wilt. Just look at their H2H stats, I've watched almost all their match ups (many late nights watching old 1960's ball) and Wilt is straight up better.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon is the most underrated player of all time. Robert Horry played with prime TD, Shaq, Kobe, and said Hakeem is miles better than all of them. The only Center in top 10 in steals, #1 in Blocks, and could guard all 5 positions. Michael Jordan said the only player he ever feared was "The big African". Oh, and one more important non-stat: the '93-'94 championship is the only one in NBA HISTORY without a second player who has ever been an NBA all-star. Hakeem carried scrubs to a championship. Peak level > career IMO, and Hakeem's peak level is greater than anyone not named Michael Jordan (and could be argued as even higher due to being the best defender ever.) Hakeem should be #2 in NBA History behind only MJ.

3. What Jokic has done this year, basically playing point guard and orchestrating the offense by himself is nothing short of amazing. His second best player Jamal Murray is a good scorer but an absolutely awful decision maker / Point Guard. But Jokic distributes the ball on time and on target to everyone on the team, making each player play their best ball with high confidence. He's basically Magic Johnson in a big fat white guy's body. Other than Hakeem, I've never seen anyone more vital to their team's success. Even Michael Jordan's Bulls went 55-27 without him in '94, does anyone think the Nuggets sans Jokic would win 55 games? This run is the second greatest run of all time behind Hakeem's' 93-94 ring, and if Jokic sustains this greatness we're going to be talking about him forever. He could end his career top 10 all time, or possibly even higher based on how good his level is. He just destroyed Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker, LeBron / AD all in a row without losing more than two games in a series. That is an all-time great run.

[SouBeachTalents]

You can't possibly claim this was an all-time carry ring when his 2nd option averaged 26 ppg

In terms of all time playoff runs, I'd need some time to reflect on where it would rank. It'd be up there with the GOAT runs like '94/'95 Hakeem, '00 Shaq, '03 Duncan etc. But ranking playoff runs 25-30 years apart is a very difficult task, the rules, officiating, and style of play are wildly different now than they were in the 90's/early 2000's.

[StrongLurk]

We should compare Jokic's run to the last few years between these players - Curry, Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi.

[LeGoat4Life]

Definitely better than any of Lebron's run

[theman93]

We should compare Jokic's run to the last few years between these players - Curry, Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi.

Jokic's PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP are all higher. Has a higher TS% than everyone except for Lebron as well. Also interesting is that his usage was lower than all those guys except for Lebron. His 30/13.5/9.5 while also shooting....46% from 3 is unheard of. What he's doing is absolutely insane. I think Jokic's 2023 run is clearly better than all those guys.


Also, something else to consider...

[StrongLurk]

Jokic's PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP are all higher. Has a higher TS% than everyone except for Lebron as well. Also interesting is that his usage was lower than all those guys except for Lebron. His 30/13.5/9.5 while also shooting....46% from 3 is unheard of. What he's doing is absolutely insane. I think Jokic's 2023 run is clearly better than all those guys.


Also, something else to consider...

I can't stand people saying Giannis/Embiid are better than Jokic because of defense.

Individual defense is much easier to improve on/hide within team defense...what's NOT easier to improve is offense. We saw Jokic go against an elite two way player (AD) and Jokic got the better of AD because Jokic has GAME BREAKING offensive capabilities.

Give me the game breaking offensive player with average defense (Jokic, peak Curry) over a regularly elite offensive player with good defense (Embiid/Giannis).

[SouBeachTalents]

I can't stand people saying Giannis/Embiid are better than Jokic because of defense.

Individual defense is much easier to improve on/hide within team defense...what's NOT easier to improve is offense. We saw Jokic go against an elite two way player (AD) and Jokic got the better of AD because Jokic has GAME BREAKING offensive capabilities.

Give me the game breaking offensive player with average defense (Jokic, peak Curry) over a regularly elite offensive player with good defense (Embiid/Giannis).

I agree with your overall point, but It's not fair to lump Giannis in with Embiid. He's for sure had his struggles in the playoffs earlier in his career, but not only is he superior to Embiid defensively, he's MUCH better offensively in the playoffs as well.

Taking Giannis over Jokic is a reasonable take imo, taking Embiid is a joke.

[jlip]

1. Bill Russell is the most overrated player of all time. .

Stopped reading right there

[hold this L]

His second option scored 27PPG on 59% TS, what kind of nonsense is this about carrying? The team was 5.5 NET while he was off the court, that's basically unheard of from pretty much any team during a PS run. Without Ja Memphis was -30 , without Curry Warriors were -15, without Embiid Philly was -9, without Davis Lakers were -4, without Booker , without Tatum Boston was -1, etc etc. Jimmy funnily enough is the only one where the team was at a higher level with him off the court.

Joker had an incredible postseason, but you picked the most moronic reason why it was dominant.

[tontoz]

Stopped reading right there

This one isn't much better

2. Hakeem Olajuwon is the most underrated player of all time.

[FultzNationRISE]

His second option scored 27PPG on 59% TS, what kind of nonsense is this about carrying? The team was 5.5 NET while he was off the court, that's basically unheard of from pretty much any team during a PS run. Without Ja Memphis was -30 , without Curry Warriors were -15, without Embiid Philly was -9, without Davis Lakers were -4, without Booker , without Tatum Boston was -1, etc etc. Jimmy funnily enough is the only one where the team was at a higher level with him off the court.

Joker had an incredible postseason, but you picked the most moronic reason why it was dominant.

The Nuggets bench def had a great playoff run and deserve a lot of credit. Both to Calvin Booth for how it was assembled, Malone for how it was used, and the players themselves for how they performed.

That said, I believe it is absolutely true that simply playing with Jokic has LIFTED his teammates understanding and confidence in teamwork, and his example made them better ball players even when he went off the court. When youve got a star player who plays with that level of professionalism, it makes other guys feel silly to then go out there and try to be selfish hero ball divas. Same effect Duncan had on San Antonio’s culture. And of course you have to bring in teammates willing to make that commitment, which both organizations did. But nobody would have looked at the Nuggets bench in a vaccuum and said “Bruce Brown, Christian Brown, Jeff Green, WOW!!!”

Jokic sets a tone few other stars have. And the guys around stepped up.

[FultzNationRISE]

That said, I do hate the “carry” narrative. It VASTLY undersells how complete any team that wins a championship actually is. There is no carrying a team to a chip in basketball. If your team is not at least VERY good, youre not gonna win a chip. Yes, elite players take their team from very good to unstoppable. But nobody takes a bad team past 29 other teams paid to get in their way. It takes a great team to win a title. Comparing guys by how much they “carried” is useless. There are better ways to compare guys.

[FultzNationRISE]

^ That said, Lebron did carry his teams.

He’s the exception.

[Duderonomy]

It seems like every year the media does this is Kawhi, Gianis, Jokic , etc is having the best postseason we ever seen (until the next one) Someone wins a championship every year and someone is the best player on the team. Do it, run it back 5 or more times then we will talk. Shaq got 3 finals MVPs in a row and forced teams to leave a roster spot open for any 7ft that was good enough for 4ppg and 6 fouls.

[Micku]

They compared stats across era, but Jokic was pretty good.