Baseball

[John8204]

Helton played at a very inopportune time MVP wise in the national league at the height of the Bonds/Sosa/ McGwire steroid run. Peaked right in the middle of that. Plus the come-up of Pujols.

He was a feared hitter, and one of the best in the league. Not all that dissimilar to Joey Votto.

It would be fine if he was losing to steroid users but he was consistently ranked. But when you have what 1 top ten finish in an MVP race that features two different players are we really rewarding the best of the best or are we going back in history and revising HOF careers. Why is a guy was was statistically good for 15 years but never a top guy in the hall but a 2 time MVP like Roger Maris not.

[ShawkFactory]

It would be fine if he was losing to steroid users but he was consistently ranked. But when you have what 1 top ten finish in an MVP race that features two different players are we really rewarding the best of the best or are we going back in history and revising HOF careers. Why is a guy was was statistically good for 15 years but never a top guy in the hall but a 2 time MVP like Roger Maris not.

The baseball MVP before the turn of the millennium was almost as backwards as the HOF voting can seem to be at times. People valued different things until very recently and there are so many people who were awarded MVPs that were not deserving at all. Narratives were bigger and actual play, and even sometimes the sexy numbers, were outright ignored.

For example, Mantle was the FAR better player the year Maris hit 61. The numbers are actually not even close aside from Maris hitting 6 more home runs or whatever.

That combined with Maris falling off very quickly and only having a 4-5 year prime makes sense. If Helton was thrown into 2024 he'd be far more regarded for what he did at the plate.

[Charlie Sheen]

Hall of Fame announcement tomorrow....yup we are going to live in a world where Todd Helton and Billy Wagner are Hall of Famers because f you that's why.

What really sucks is Don Mattingly is going to lose his veterans election again to Gary Sheffield (who should be inducted this anyways but won't)

The hall of fame is not about anything but the writers anymore... I share your frustration here

You are taking it out on the wrong person. No reason to tear him down because Helton is not the person refusing to vote for Beltran, Sheff, Arod, Manny, Barry, Clemens...

[John8204]

The hall of fame is not about anything but the writers anymore... I share your frustration here

You are taking it out on the wrong person. No reason to tear him down because Helton is not the person refusing to vote for Beltran, Sheff, Arod, Manny, Barry, Clemens...

You make a good point that it's not really Helton's fault that the writers. With that said all of these players are given a platform and they never hold the writers accountable for the mess they've made the Hall into.

[ShawkFactory]

Looking more into Maris and things I hadn’t even seen before, dude hit 275 home runs and was a career .260 hitter with an .822 OPS. And I know WAR is more difficult to track for older players when each interaction can’t be analyzed, but the average career WAR of HOFers in the mid-50s I believe and he was at 38.

He absolutely did not have a HOF career. The 2 MVPs are nice but again, he certainly didn’t deserve one of them and you could make an argument he didn’t deserve the first either.

[warriorfan]

You make a good point that it's not really Helton's fault that the writers. With that said all of these players are given a platform and they never hold the writers accountable for the mess they've made the Hall into.

baseball writers are the scum of the earth

it feels like in combination of them and mlb they have been determined to suck all of the enjoyment out of the game. i put a large blame on them why baseball has lost interest of so many, especially the younger generation.

they need to go.

[John8204]

Looking more into Maris and things I hadn’t even seen before, dude hit 275 home runs and was a career .260 hitter with an .822 OPS. And I know WAR is more difficult to track for older players when each interaction can’t be analyzed, but the average career WAR of HOFers in the mid-50s I believe and he was at 38.

He absolutely did not have a HOF career. The 2 MVPs are nice but again, he certainly didn’t deserve one of them and you could make an argument he didn’t deserve the first either.

7 time all-star not an HOF
3 time champion not a HOF
2 time MVP not a HOF
1 breaker of one of the greatest record in sports...not a HOF

30 years from now is anyone going to even mention Todd Helton's name. This is the Hall of Fame not the hall of BAOPSWARLMNOP...it's a museum that should celebrate the history of the sport

[BurningHammer]

Jays signs Justin Turner, 1-year, $13 million. They have been trying to put more scores on the board and he may help fixing that.

[Wally450]

Jays signs Justin Turner, 1-year, $13 million. They have been trying to put more scores on the board and he may help fixing that.

My goodness, the Red Sox are going to be absolute dog shit this season. They don't care about fielding a good team for the next 3 years.

[ShawkFactory]

7 time all-star not an HOF
3 time champion not a HOF
2 time MVP not a HOF
1 breaker of one of the greatest record in sports...not a HOF

30 years from now is anyone going to even mention Todd Helton's name. This is the Hall of Fame not the hall of BAOPSWARLMNOP...it's a museum that should celebrate the history of the sport

Where do you draw the line with that though? Someone simply getting lucky and playing for a big franchise and being famous doesn’t make them more dererving.

Todd Helton is a perfect example of someone of the other end. He’s better than pretty anyone the Yankees have had since the 60s, aside from maybe Arod, but didn’t get the shine.

[John8204]

Where do you draw the line with that though? Someone simply getting lucky and playing for a big franchise and being famous doesn’t make them more dererving.

Todd Helton is a perfect example of someone of the other end. He’s better than pretty anyone the Yankees have had since the 60s, aside from maybe Arod, but didn’t get the shine.

Todd Helton is a perfect example of selective ethics...Baseball is the only sport where winning an MVP seems to be an also thought. If you break the single season home run record I don't give a fly's public hair about your +/- OPSWARFDSWERGGH junk.

I mean think for a second what you are saying...you are telling me you don't know what the line is with a 2 time MVP and 7 time all-star. That's the resume you are having trouble contextualizing within the larger picture.

[Charlie Sheen]

My goodness, the Red Sox are going to be absolute dog shit this season. They don't care about fielding a good team for the next 3 years.

Their ownership sucks but there was no place for Turner on this years team once Cora decided he could not play Yoshida in the field.

[ShawkFactory]

Todd Helton is a perfect example of selective ethics...Baseball is the only sport where winning an MVP seems to be an also thought. If you break the single season home run record I don't give a fly's public hair about your +/- OPSWARFDSWERGGH junk.

I mean think for a second what you are saying...you are telling me you don't know what the line is with a 2 time MVP and 7 time all-star. That's the resume you are having trouble contextualizing within the larger picture.

With the “line” talk I didn’t mean to solo out Maris. There are several people in the hall who shouldn’t be because they were more famous than others.

The selective ethics talk while highlighting MVPs holds no weight when the MVP itself has been based on those same selective ethics as well. People made a turn in the 21st century to put more emphasis on actual play rather than narrative. I’ve already discussed Maris over Mantle the 61 year. You’re glorifying one number, and one where despite breaking the record he still only hit 6 more than his teammate.

Why wouldn’t Mantle having far greater production in every other area matter? Have an OPS 150 points higher is adding far more value on a game-to-game basis than someone lower UNLESS said lower OPS guy made up for it by playing a premium defensive position or providing aggressively more value in the basepaths. Maris did neither, as Mantle was the center fielder and led in steals 12-0.

That would never fly now. And you not giving a fvck about the numbers as long as the narrative is there means we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

[John8204]

So you are saying Maris shouldn't have won those two MVP's. Was Todd Helton ever a top five player in the league. You can quibble over who got what award but inducting someone who was never even in the conversation. When you've decided to marginalize MVP's and Cy Youngs for advanced stats and longevity numbers what you really end up doing is hurting both. Because Helton loses his credibility as a true Hall of Famer because we are talking about the players who aren't in. The Baseball hall of fame is less what you did to get in and more what excuse can we use to keep you out.

[Charlie Sheen]

Johan got dropped off the ballot after his first year.

2006 he led the league in w, ip, k, era

Hall has never cared about how great you were if you had a short career...except Koufax