Why was Hakeem getting beat in Rd 1 or missing the playoffs for so much of his prime

[1987_Lakers]

After Jordan Hakeem might just be the best two way player ever.

What’s crazy is his D is better than his offense. And his offense is all time great. lol.

There is no debate. Peak Hakeem is the GOAT two way player.

I believe Russell & Hakeem are #1 and #2 in terms of defense.

Hakeem didn't have the playmaking, but he was an all-time great scorer.

[Bawkish]

3braincells functions one for each:

1. deifying MJ
2. Kobe as successor
3. crucifying Bron

[jayfan]

Coaching.

As soon as Rudy took over and made Hakeem the focal point, he and the team took off.


.

[90sgoat]

Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?

Probably because he peaked at a very high level and his peak was both being the best defensive big man and the best offensive big man, at the time, and he won against other all time greats like Ewing, Shaq, Robinson.

[Hey Yo]

But why did Hakeem all of a sudden go to another level in 94' and 95'?

What changed?

The king lion was gone... that's what changed... one day Hakeem woke up and looked around.... It dawned on him that he was now the king lion - that's when his game and confidence went to another level...

That's when he had the confidence to let his full bag out and the "dream shake" was born (a version of the Jordan windshield wiper move)... Hakeem was like "I'm MJ now"... lol

MJ had nothing to do with Houston not getting to the Finals

[90sgoat]

Wasn't Hakeem known for his coke and groupie habit in his early years?

And he credits finding god, islam, for turning his career around?

[warriorfan]

Wasn't Hakeem known for his coke and groupie habit in his early years?

And he credits finding god, islam, for turning his career around?

I don’t think i’ve ever heard anything like that.

[pandiani17]

Wasn't Hakeem known for his coke and groupie habit in his early years?

And he credits finding god, islam, for turning his career around?

He had teammates that were into coke in his early years in Houston (Mitchell Wiggins (Andrew's dad, Lewis Lloyd and Ralph Sampson, the first two were even banned for a couple of years after their trip to the finals). However, I have never heard him being part of that group. What I have heard Hakeem admit is that he used to be a selfish player and put himself above the team before turning to Islam. He became a much better, likeable teammate after that and the results of the following years are a living proof of that.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

'89 first round L
'90 first round L
'91 first round L (swept)
'92 missed the playoffs.

^ That was age 25-29. In a league with far less total talent than today. Three straight first round bounces, and a missed playoffs. In his prime.



And the same idiots who destroy players today for playoff results have the nerve to put Hakeem in their top 10

Imagine being that low IQ.

Because he had the worst supporting casts out of any consensus Top 15 player, and his owner was horrible….maybe not quite Glen Taylor bad, but close.

And examine some of these series/years.

In ‘88 they were without Sampson, who suffered a season-ending injury. Even at full strength that was not a very good team, but Hakeem dragged them to 46 wins. What happened in the playoffs?

Man put up 38/17/2/2/3 on 64% TS. No typos there. They lost 3-1 to a 53 win team, but what more do you realistically expect out of one player?

They next year their roster was even thinner, sporting a supporting cast of: Otis Thorpe, Sleepy Floyd, Mike Woodson, Buck Johnson, Walter Berry, Derrick Chievous, Purvis Short and Tim McCormick.

They win 45, again lose without HCA and Hakeem plays well - 25/13/3/3 on 55%.

The Rockets trot out nearly the same roster the following year and lose to a 63 win Lakers, where Hakeem has arguably his least impactful playoff series but still puts up 19/12/2/3 on 6 blocks.

Finally, in ‘91, they add some semblance of support in Smith, but this still falls well short of a championship cast. Win 52, draw the eventual finalists in the first round and Hakeem once again has a great individual series - 22/15/2 3 blks on 63% TS.


Not too damning. Everyone and their mother’s will tell you Jordan was a GOAT-level player even in his early years (better than Hakeem, naturally), yet even that didn’t will him to deep playoff runs.

A minimum threshold of support must have been met for Hakeem to catch criticism for these team underperformances, and it simply wasn’t.

Now, what happened when he *did* receive a contender-level supporting cast, even a marginal one? He managed to squeeze two titles out of it.

In ‘94 he faced Barkley, Malone and Ewing, all of whom had equal or better supporting casts. He was the better player in each of these match-ups, and his team won. Absolutely embarrassed Ewing.

In ‘95 he faced Malone, Barkley, Robinson and Shaq. Again a supporting cast deficit (at least on paper) in every series, and again he was at least equal to or better than the other teams #1. Won a second title without HCA in any round, beating 4 teams that averaged 59 wins.

These results speak for themselves. Swap Hakeem/Duncan and TD is hard-pressed to win more than two, all else (for the sake of the argument) remaining equal. As is Shaq, who won “”””only””” three as the top guy despite having good-to-great situations for the first 15 years of his career.

I’m a big TD guy and rank him marginally ahead of Hakeem, but it’s literally only because of Rangz. I can’t sit here and make any other case for Duncan being definitively ahead as an individual player. There’s a reason no Rockets fan is salty about them drafting Hakeem over Jordan.

[FultzNationRISE]

^ I totally get. I agree there is context to every result.

But when people discuss ranking Kawhi, inevitably people will bring up blowing a 3-1 lead to a seven foot Windhorst.

If Lebron loses in the finals to the best roster ever assembled people will use that as a reason he cant be ahead of MJ.

People were defining Jokic’s career the other night because he missed a few threes in the first half of a single game.

Ive never heard anyone make such superficial critiques of Hakeem, even tho the opportunity to do so is clearly there.

People scrutinize EVERYTHING about today’s players, and reduce their status with every loss, but seem to “win wash” all the guys from the past. Only the wins count when they rank guys from back in the day.

[And1AllDay]

top 15 like little mikey with all those first rd getting swept

[Soundwave]

Yeah Hakeem had a bit of a weird career, beat the 86 Lakers to get to the Finals early in his career, but had a lull there before winning back to back in 94-95.

If the implication is Hakeem is overrated, wasn't actually good, etc. etc. sorry but I can't agree. I think he just had poor teams for a good stretch there.

He's still 1 on 1 the most skilled big I've ever seen. He could just cook people alive in the post, foot work, athleticism, agility, shot making all off the charts.

I think he also peaked a bit later in his career, his mental game was much stronger by 94/95.

He missed the playoffs in 1992, but missed 12 games which probably had a lot to do with that, it also tells you his supporting cast (Otis Thorpe as the no.2 player) wasn't very good.

In 1990 and 1991 he lost to Magic's Lakers, so it's not like he was getting beaten by some trash team.

There isn't as much criticism of Hakeem because frankly people don't care that much. The obsession over Jordan (and yes this includes his haters) is a unique phenomenon, no other player really has that, 15 years from now kids are not going to care about LeBron or Kobe or Steph nearly as much as Jordan dominates the conversation still likr 20+ years later. Jordan is the standard and people just gravitate to every aspect of his career, he's just unique, no one else is going to be remembered/obsessed over in that way.

Even players like Wade and Dirk who haven't even been retired that long ... feels like they are so far out of sight out of mind.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

^ I totally get. I agree there is context to every result.

But when people discuss ranking Kawhi, inevitably people will bring up blowing a 3-1 lead to a seven foot Windhorst.

If Lebron loses in the finals to the best roster ever assembled people will use that as a reason he cant be ahead of MJ.

People were defining Jokic’s career the other night because he missed a few threes in the first half of a single game.

Ive never heard anyone make such superficial critiques of Hakeem, even tho the opportunity to do so is clearly there.

People scrutinize EVERYTHING about today’s players, and reduce their status with every loss, but seem to “win wash” all the guys from the past. Only the wins count when they rank guys from back in the day.

Hakeem not being a casualty of the “unfairly windmilling blame” phenomenon can be framed as a positive thing, though. He flew under the radar in a non-basketball town and was overshadowed by a better player (Jordan), as well as several flashier ones (Barkley, Shaq—who is also arguably better, though I’m not sold—Drexler, etc.) So we didn’t have to hear about his legacy being picked apart as much…even better considering there’s not a whole lot to fairly pick apart.

I do agree that many players have gotten far too much criticism relative to their actual postseason failings (CP3, Dirk before he won his title, LeBron) and so on. Hakeem hasn’t gotten as much scrutiny as them, and others. But the other side of that is that he’s gotten far less flowers in mainstream discussions than the likes of Shaq and Duncan.

[HoopsNY]

Everyone has their flaws in terms of being an ATG, but to divorce context from the reality would be unfair. Hakeem had a lot of issues with the front office and ownership in his years prior to the championship seasons, and it wasn't a pleasant mix to say the least.

That being said, Hakeem missed 12 games in the '92 season. Houston was only 2-10 in those games. If Hakeem is healthy, the Rockets likely make the playoffs.

He also suffered from his teammates' demise - Sampson, Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas.

I won't repeat everything but Peja did an excellent job of explaining most of it above. I will say this though, Sampson, Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas were fairly young, all being 26-27 years old at the time of injury/suspension with the exception of John Lucas, who was a veteran PG and 32 at the time.

While those guys weren't on the level of the casts of the Lakers and Celtics, one has to wonder and at least contextualize what would have happened if Magic, Bird, or even MJ lost their casts just as they were entering their prime.

Does MJ win 6 titles without Pippen, Grant, BJ, and Phil as the HC? Why would it be any different for Hakeem who lost half of the twin towers while not having a coach the caliber of a Rudy T? Yes, they had Bill Fitch, but rumors were that the Houston team wasn't getting along with Fitch (and it wasn't just Akeem at that point).

But even if we hold Hakeem to account, then what about every other NBA legend? One thing we do know, Hakeem is the greatest two way player in league history. In the postseason at his peak, Hakeem was putting up 29/12/3/2/4 on nearly 54%. And he was doing so whether the league was high paced or slowing down, against some of the best front lines in the league.

If you gave Hakeem the complimentary pieces, then he produced. If he had the luxury of a Phil Jackson, with shooters like BJ, Hodges, Kerr, Paxson, and a floor general like Pippen, then who's winning 6 titles and being heralded as the GOAT?

[John8204]

Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?

I think most people blame Ralp Sampson not Hakeem for the 80's failure. He did make the finals beating Alex English and KAJ/Magic.

And also in his 30's he beat Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Payton, Magic, Garnett, Stockton, Malone.

I don't know how many guys are top ten in 4 major categories but he's top ten in rebounds, steals, points, and blocks.