How good is the case for peak Magic and Bird over peak Lebron?

[ImKobe]

It's all subjective but I think '84 Bird and '87 Magic have a good case if you wanted to argue it. Both Magic & Bird were way more unselfish than Bron so the pro-Bron folk would say they didn't score enough but they dominated the league just as well as peak Bron.

[1987_Lakers]

No case.

[tpols]

After watching the 80s tape in depth I wouldn't say they have any case. It's just nostalgia because it was a golden era for basketball. No internet, no cell phones, all people had was TV. And that was the media they consumed.

The clunky overhand right dribbling, most guys can't shoot a lick and don't have to defend at range, free post catches, etc...

Lebron basically has their skills but in a superman body.

[gengiskhan]

After watching the 80s tape in depth I wouldn't say they have any case. It's just nostalgia because it was a golden era for basketball. No internet, no cell phones, all people had was TV. And that was the media they consumed.

The clunky overhand right dribbling, most guys can't shoot a lick and don't have to defend at range, free post catches, etc...

Lebron basically has their skills but in a superman body.

eff recency bias!.....

NBA puts full on hand checking, full court presses, physical defense, completely clogged paints with tall, long big men back in the game against LBJ....

LeBalco has no chance of even winning 1 championship. none. all that talent will get him to 80s EC semis or even 90s ECF but thats about it.

LBJ's game is ugly. He takes full 2-3 secs to decide what to do as a primary playmaker because of average Bball IQ. All this a result of not playing NCAA.

80s and 90s "no blood no foul" era would've exposed LBJ big time.

I doubt LBJ can compete against 1980s Dominique for full 48 mins. That Human Highlight Film was too athletic and always moving, always agile scoring kill machine.

[tpols]

eff recency bias!.....

NBA puts full on hand checking, full court presses, physical defense, completely clogged paints with tall, long big men back in the game against LBJ....

LeBalco has no chance of even winning 1 championship. none. all that talent will get him to 80s EC semis or even 90s ECF but thats about it.

LBJ's game is ugly. He takes full 2-3 secs to decide what to do as a primary playmaker because of average Bball IQ. All this a result of not playing NCAA.

80s and 90s "no blood no foul" era would've exposed LBJ big time.

I doubt LBJ can compete against 1980s Dominique for full 48 mins. That Human Highlight Film was too athletic and always moving, always agile scoring kill machine.

I used to think that too but a lot of you guys in the 80s were straight up skinny. Dominique had hops and skills but he was ass on defense and giving up like 70 lbs of pure muscle to LeHorse. He'd get ran the **** over with impunity.

Hand checking wouldn't mean a damn thing in that case. But the tape shows defenses mostly sagged back then. There was tremendous freedom of movement from 25 feet out, basically you weren't even being guarded until you entered the midrange, paint or post.

Miami Lebron @ 270 all muscle fully juiced up would be bigger than all of yall. By a lot. Centers like 80s Kareem, Hakeem, Bill Lambier, and Robert Parish all weighed less than Lebron and moved like dinosaurs compared to him. It would be a joke.

The 90s would be much tougher because dudes started to take weight lifting seriously then and it was a true go0n league. Hardcore strength training used to be discouraged before that because the sentiment was being too strong would affect your touch and skill. Overall though, yall 80s guys were flabby, slow, and weak.

[dankok8]

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

[ILLsmak]

'peak' adds massive subjectivity. How long is a peak? Whose peak is when?

I am sure you can make a very good case, but in regards to all time resume, it's hard to compare given Bron has crazy longevity and the all time scoring record.

Both Larry and Magic were DUM at their peak though. I mean, I can't say there is a drop off for them when compared to anyone. If you say who was best at their best, they are all in that tier. Even MJ would probably say so. Peak for Peak, it would be a toss up.

Edit: real shit if I had to choose of the 3, LeBron would be the one whose peak might not match up heh.

-Smak

[Hey Yo]

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

Magic better on offense than LeBron? Magic wasn't asked to deliver more offense or take over first option until 1987... his 8th year in the league. James pretty much was expected to do so from game one of his rookie season. Sure, Magic runs a better fast break, but that's where it ends. James is the better scorer and shooter.

[John8204]

I can see the argument for Larry Bird, Larry was the first option shooter who had to play against the toughest competition and he won rings. But Lebron's peak was twice as long as Larry's

[VictorMosquito]

Why did you start using my avatar?

You're not even good at chess

[Nowoco]

The only guys imo you could argue peaked at LeBron's level would be Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq & Wilt, and you could throw Jokic into the mix depending how you feel about his defense.

This.

[sdot_thadon]

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

A small positive on defense when comparing a guy that never made a single all defensive team to a guy with 2 2nd place dpoy finishes? lol. And I'm not even sure you can say definitively he's better than Lebron offensively when Lebron has been the best of both worlds as a scorer/playmaker for most of his career.

[ArbitraryWater]

[gengiskhan]

I can see the argument for Larry Bird, Larry was the first option shooter who had to play against the toughest competition and he won rings. But Lebron's peak was twice as long as Larry's

nobody cares!

Bird's peak was "higher' than LBJs.

Thats what counts.

BTW, dont even bother arguing LBJ's "peak" was higher than Bird.

If that was the case, Bird would have never ever beaten Magic's LAL in Finals. and would've lost to 22 YO Akeem-Ralph twin towers in 1986 Finals.

Why LBJs peak is lower than Bird, there is a reason he LBJ lost to JJ Barea with the "super team" with all 3 mid-20s to late-20s in their prime on a team that has Championship DNA (2006).

Bird built a "dynasty" in his peak with 3 consequitive MVPs and 2 MVP sweeps. LBJ failed to build easiest of the 'dynasty' in his prime in 3 different franchises. MIA followed by CAVS followed by LAL. Twice he got easiest of the easy, wide open East Conferences.

All 3 franchises gave LBJ "super teams" too. Reason LBJ will come after Magic and Bird forever and ever in GOAT hierarchy.

[dankok8]

A small positive on defense when comparing a guy that never made a single all defensive team to a guy with 2 2nd place dpoy finishes? lol. And I'm not even sure you can say definitively he's better than Lebron offensively when Lebron has been the best of both worlds as a scorer/playmaker for most of his career.

I never said I believe that. I see Lebron as well ahead of Magic on defense and that's based on my eye test. But evaluating defense is so subjective and there is very few meaningful metrics especially before tracking starting in 2013-14. So the low and high end valuations of defense can be very far apart.

My point is that someone who is very low on Lebron's defense and rates him as a slightly positive while rating Magic as a neutral defender could have Magic ahead if they consider Magic as definitely better on offense.

Of course if you're very high on Lebron's defense then there's probably zero case for Magic.