Why hasn't Philly measurably improved post-Ben Simmons?

[Im Still Ballin]

The Sixers will tangibly improve when Joel Embiid can translate his regular season dominance to the playoffs.

I'm not even focused solely on playoff results. The Post-Simmons 76ers haven't performed any better in the regular season either. I would've expected a measurable, observable improvement in SRS and W/L %. But that hasn't been the case. And this goes against the narrative many were pushing back in 2021 and 2022 when Ben was scapegoated and his non-shooting was made out to be a bigger issue than it really was.

And those who acted as if Ben and his non-shooting were a super-critical issue sure as hell don't want to admit that they were wrong now. And they were wrong, because they replaced him with a great shooter and perimeter creator in Harden and lucked into Tyrese Maxey, another great shooter and perimeter creator.

From 23rd in three-point makes, 26th in attempts, and 11th in percentage in 2020-21 to 12th in makes, 16th in attempts, and 1st in percentage in 2022-23.

Different team strengths, same results. Tradeoffs. Was the '23 team better than the '21 team? Maybe. Maybe not. Sure as hell wasn't obvious. They weren't measurably better.

[Im Still Ballin]

And don't even bother mentioning injuries because they had them in the Ben Simmons era too.

[Phoenix]

Well as you said earlier, there were some trade-offs with what Simmons did and didn't do vs what a post 2021 James Harden was giving you. I'm not convinced that Joel is more than a monster stats guy though, without much material impact in creating a winning culture. I guess when PG13 comes on board, if you can get at least 65-70 games from him, Embiid and Maxey you'll have your answer as to what it translates to in the W/L column.

[RRR3]

Well as you said earlier, there were some trade-offs with what Simmons did and didn't do vs what a post 2021 James Harden was giving you. I'm not convinced that Joel isn't more than a monster stats guy though, without much material impact in creating a winning environment. I guess when PG13 comes on board, if you can get at least 65-70 games from him, Embiid and Maxey you'll have your answer.

I don't think "just a stats guy" should apply to anyone who plays good defense. Embiid is a playoff dropper and is constantly injured but he's extremely impactful overall, generally even when he shoots badly.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Harden wasn’t an improvement because he cost them on the defensive end. He was a good trade for them overall however because been Simmons had stopped playing basketball. Harden didn't do them much good but he at least gave them another season and then traded him for a few more assets. Simmons has been worthless to any team since he quit on Philly.

Now that he is in a contract year on a team that is built to lose he may even get his numbers again because he's got no pressure and likely wants a new contract. If he does he's just further incriminating himself. I've never said anything like this before but I almost hope it really has been a terrible back because if not that says some awful things about his character.

[Phoenix]

I don't think "just a stats guy" should apply to anyone who plays good defense. Embiid is a playoff dropper and is constantly injured but he's extremely impactful overall, generally even when he shoots badly.

That goes back to my point about his regular season dominance translating to the playoffs, but OP isn't expressly talking about playoff wins nor should injuries be brought up per prior comments, sooooo I don't know.

[RRR3]

Harden wasn’t an improvement because he cost them on the defensive end. He was a good trade for them overall however because been Simmons had stopped playing basketball. Harden didn't do them much good but he at least gave them another season and then traded him for a few more assets. Simmons has been worthless to any team since he quit on Philly.

Now that he is in a contract year on a team that is built to lose he may even get his numbers again because he's got no pressure and likely wants a new contract. If he does he's just further incriminating himself. I've never said anything like this before but I almost hope it really has been a terrible back because if not that says some awful things about his character.

This is probably what Simmons has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

[Carbine]

How was Simmons going to be a 6'10 Jason Kidd if he reached his potential?

Kidd was one of the best passes of my lifetime. Simmons was an excellent passer but Kidd was an era defining passer. Getting 10-11 dimes in the slow down defensive era he played his prime in is legendary. He also has one of the highest 3pt shots made in NBA history. Top 20 all time ahead of Dirk.

Ben Simmons has made 5 threes in his 360 something game career.

This comparison makes no sense to me. Kidd would shoot it and make it enough that you gotta respect it in his era. Simmons is a complete disregard out there.

[Im Still Ballin]

How was Simmons going to be a 6'10 Jason Kidd if he reached his potential?

Kidd was one of the best passes of my lifetime. Simmons was an excellent passer but Kidd was an era defining passer. Getting 10-11 dimes in the slow down defensive era he played his prime in is legendary. He also has one of the highest 3pt shots made in NBA history. Top 20 all time ahead of Dirk.

Ben Simmons has made 5 threes in his 360 something game career.

This comparison makes no sense to me. Kidd would shoot it and make it enough that you gotta respect it in his era. Simmons is a complete disregard out there.

You're doing too much as usual. The comp was a 6'10", 240-pound worse-shooting Young Jason Kidd. Very versatile on defense, can switch and defend multiple positions, in the post, on the perimeter, off-ball, on-ball, strong closeouts. Active hands in the passing lanes, racking up deflections and assists. Great at grabbing a defensive board and pushing the tempo to create fast break opportunities. Both great passers, particularly at finding shooters, cutters, and bigs in the paint. Can bully smaller players in the post. Great passers out of the post.

The major differences are the size, athleticism relative to position, and shooting ability. And the era they played in, which influences shot selection and what's tolerated.

There's a difference between Young Kidd and the one you remember. Young Kidd was a terrible shooter from the field and a below-average one from the free-throw line. Ben? He's clearly worse than that to the point he doesn't even take them. And it's a good thing he doesn't. Young Kidd was like 35-37% on mid-range shots and 28-32% on threes. Unguarded. 68-70% on FTs.

If Young Kidd played today his shooting wouldn't be tolerated beyond wide-open catch-and-shoot/set-shot threes. And even those would be a problem that people would continually bring up. Like Giddey.

But worse than that? No point shooting it. And that's the level where Ben is at. Maybe non-shooting is a better phrasing than worse-shooting.

What's a better high-end comp? A non-shooting Lamar Odom with more of a playmaking license? A non-shooting, more athletic Magic Johnson with elite defense and zero dawg in him? A taller Young LeBron without any jump shot and worse free-throw shooting? How granular do you want to get? A bigger, non-shooting Grant Hill with DPOY-level defense?

There's no perfect direct comparison for a player as unique as Simmons. But he's got that Jason Kidd thing about him where he's just as likely to have a game scoring 5 points as he is 25. High variance. And the 5-point game may be as impactful as ones where he scores three or four times as much. He had a 0-point game for Brooklyn and he was the best player for the Nets that night.

[Im Still Ballin]

Harden wasn’t an improvement because he cost them on the defensive end. He was a good trade for them overall however because been Simmons had stopped playing basketball. Harden didn't do them much good but he at least gave them another season and then traded him for a few more assets. Simmons has been worthless to any team since he quit on Philly.

Now that he is in a contract year on a team that is built to lose he may even get his numbers again because he's got no pressure and likely wants a new contract. If he does he's just further incriminating himself. I've never said anything like this before but I almost hope it really has been a terrible back because if not that says some awful things about his character.

Did Harden cost them on defense? Or did losing Ben cost them on defense?

With hindsight, obviously trading Ben was the right move to make. But that's not the point being addressed in this thread. The OP was simply about 2018-2021 Philly with Simmons vs. 2022-2024 Philly without Simmons, contextualized by the dominant narratives at the time of fallout and subsequent trade circa mid-2021 to early-2022.

[iamgine]

It's just hypocritical because a guy like Dray can win the championship and get praise for his 6 ppg on 33% shooting but Simmons gets roasted and blackballed for 10 ppg on 60% shooting. Neither player is guarded. I watch defenders sag 15 feet off Dray and leave him wide open all the time. We all do in fact.

You can't equate them. They have different roles and expectation.

[fourkicks44]

I was told Philadelphia would become measurably better once they replaced him with a guy who could shoot. I guess James Harden and the emergence of Tyrese Maxey weren't enough. We'll see how Paul George goes.

The 76ers were a winning team each of the four seasons Ben was there. This was despite a poor fit and roster/personnel decisions, and Joel constantly missing large chunks of the season. They were 35-7 with Joel and Ben in 2020-21 when they secured the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference.



People really overexaggerated the whole "playing 4-on-5 offense" thing. They acted as if the 76ers would immediately and dramatically improve once they found an adequate replacement who could shoot. But basketball is a bit more complicated than that.

Ben was a valuable player that impacted the game in a variety of ways. What they gained in shooting and spacing they lost in defense, size, rebounding, and transition play. There's always a tradeoff.

Simmons still has the strongest winning percentage of all Joel's sidekicks:



They lost more on defense than they gained on offense:

And this my man was why Embiid should have been MVP in 2022

[tpols]

You can't equate them. They have different roles and expectation.

Nah... they really don't. They literally had the same role. Both assist leaders for their teams and best defenders who both don't need to be guarded and can't shoot. Their strengths and weaknesses are identical as we're the role they played.

Outside of 2016 Dray, Ben was basically a bigger more talented version of Dray. But when everybody turned on him he lost confidence. Dray has been 10x the asshole Simmons ever was but only catches flak briefly before being allowed to go on another rampage.

[Carbine]

Draymond is quite a bit different when you evaluate them as players. It's not as easy as saying both were great defenders and passers so Simmons is better because he's 6'10 instead of 6'6.

For one Simmons has a smaller wingspan, 6'11 to 7'1 for Dray. You don't block shots or contest shots with your head.

#2 Draymond attitude is worlds different. He cares a lot about basketball. I'm sure if you asked all the Warriors and their coaches the majority of them would say Draymond is/was the leader of the dynasty. Ben Simmons attitude towards basketball is awful and this permeates the team.

#3 their defensive qualities are much different. Simmons best attributes is his ability to defend smaller players on the perimeter and also bigger guards. He was a point of attack defender whereas Draymond was the anchor.

Draymond was the #1 or #2 rim protector in the entire NBA in his peak years and for my money the best help defender as well.

[tpols]

First off, Ben simmons wingspan span is 7 foot. Drays is 7'1. Simple Google search. Thats a nothingburger difference.

But Ben's standing reach is longer than Drays and he has a higher vert and better athleticism metrics across the board. It was actually measured a few years ago that Ben Simmons had the highest standing reach + vertical combo in the NBA. He was a monster athlete.

Besides that their strengths weaknesses and roles were all extremely similar. Yes Dray has a more aggressive temperament and is different intangibly. No two players are ever going to be perfectly the same no matter what the comparison. That's an impossibility.

And yes, as a huge Jason Kidd fan I do see the comparisons in their styles especially young Kidd, Simmons just didn't have the hardcore mentality Kidd had. The will to win. Hollywood and celebrity might have ruined his drive for the game. Along with the scapegoating.