ISH all-time draft thread

[AlternativeAcc.]

Malone shot > 50% on midrange shots >16ft for multiple years on high volume. Better percentages than MJ and comparable with KD and Dirk. Go look at the stats.

Just to touch on this... Malone shot 53% on long 2s during his peak 97/98 seasons on high volume.

Jordan during that same time shot 49%, Dirks peak in 2011 he was at 52% which was the highest of his career, and Garnett shot around 45%. Paul in his peak years was also around 45-46%. Kawhi at 44%, Kobe low 40s/high 30s....

So saying Malone doesn't space the floor, especially in the context where hed be surrounded by 3 of the greatest shooters ever, is actually one of the dumbest things ever uttered. Leave it to manny and rr3.

[Im Still Ballin]

Tpols is a moron lol. But yeah, klay is such a perfect off-ball compliment to other stars I'm honestly surprised he fell to me. Giannis is basically a taller, more athletic, better passing version of Barkley on offense with elite DPOY level defense to match. People are passing on Barkley because he couldn't defend.

I get the general, surface-level comparison to Giannis. But the nuances about how they go about dominating the paint is different. Chuck is way more capable in the post, has a reliable mid-range jump shot, and is a little better at free-throw shooting. Not to mention a superior offensive rebounder.

He's just a more dynamic scorer in the half-court setting. Able to do more things whatever the circumstance. In the clutch, against mismatches from switches, cross-matches in transition, small-ball lineups, broken plays, etc. Situational value.

Chuck probably shoots 65-70% on two-point shots whereas Giannis is at 60-65%. And more of that is able to come in the half-court setting through the post and mid-range and from putbacks. I mean, Chuck shot 25% above league average on two-point shots in Philly. 61.4% FG vs. 49% FG.

If you multiply the 2024 league average 2pt% (54.5) by 1.25 that's like shooting 68.1% today. And he was doing that against huge lineups that packed the paint.

As for the defense, it's an issue but not as critical as you're making it out to be. The right scheme and personnel can minimize his shortcomings while maximizing what he does do well on defense: rebound.

In today's league, you could play him with a Brook Lopez and a Jaren Jackson. Or a Porzingis/healthy Rob Williams and Al Horford. Big, rim-protecting defenders that can shoot. And floor-spacing versatile defenders that can defend the perimeter and switch. They've got more options on defense than Jokic does because he can only play the center position. Yet Denver made it work.

A RealGM poster tracked Charles Barkley's stats in 100 games between 1988-1996. His scoring at the rim was tremendous (81% on 8.15 rim FGAs per game) and his mid-range was good (41.6% on 5.31 mid-range FGAs per game).

A play-type breakdown is also included for 84 of the games. You can see what types of plays he's primarily scoring from. There's also an isolation play breakdown that gets even more specific.

In these games, he averaged 4.4 post-up possessions per game, 7.8 isolation possessions per game, 2.5 offensive rebound putback possessions per game, 1.0 cut possession per game, 1.3 finish possessions per game, and 1.3 transition possessions per game.

100 Game Sample

At Rim: 660/815 FG (81.0%)
In Paint (Overall): 730/1051 FG (69.4%)
Mid-Range: 221/531 FG (41.6%)
3 Point: 73/243 FG (30.0%)

Synergy Play-type Breakdown 1988-1996 (84 games):

Explanation:

I have added an extra category called Finish, which is basically all the plays when a guard would drive the lane and create a shot for him to just go up and finish. There are several sub-categories out of Isolation, and the Spot Up category is referring to jump shots only. PPP stands for Points Per Play. As excellent as he was in the low post and on the offensive glass, he was indefensible when cutting to the hoop off the ball. Also as bad a shooter as he was in a catch and shoot or spot up play, he was a tremendous 3 point shooter in isolation when he had a chance to set his feet and line up his set shot. He always took a few shots every game since he felt if he made the first shot or two, then it would open up his inside game.

Isolation-specific breakdown:

Games included:

Dec 22, 1992 - Warriors vs. Suns
Feb 7, 1993 - Magic vs. Suns *4 FGA
Mar 3, 1993 - Sixers vs. Suns
Mar 23, 1993 - Knicks vs. Suns
Mar 28, 1993 - Suns vs. Sixers (2nd Half Only) *12 FGA
Mar 30, 1993 - Suns vs. Bulls
Apr 2, 1993 - Suns vs. Celtics
Apr 6, 1993 - Lakers vs. Suns
1993 Playoffs Suns vs. Spurs (Full Series)
1993 Playoffs Suns vs. Sonics (Full Series)
1993 Finals Suns vs. Bulls (Full Series)

Nov 30, 1987 - Sixers vs. Jazz
Nov 8, 1988 - Pistons vs. Sixers
Nov 16, 1988 - Bulls vs. Sixers
Dec 28, 1988 - Sixers vs. Lakers
Mar 16, 1989 - Sixers vs. Knicks
Nov 14, 1989 - Sixers vs. Celtics
Mar 11, 1990 - Sixers vs. Celtics
Apr 7, 1990 - Sixers vs. Hawks
Apr 19, 1990 - Sixers vs. Pistons
1990 Playoffs Game 5 Sixers vs. Cavs
1990 Playoffs Sixers vs. Bulls (Full Series)
Nov 2, 1990 - Sixers vs. Bulls *2 FGA
Nov 30, 1990 - Sixers vs. Pistons
Dec 28, 1990 - Sixers vs. Suns
Jan 9, 1991 - Bulls vs. Sixers
1991 Playoffs Sixers vs. Bulls (Full Series)
Nov 1, 1991 - Sixers vs. Bulls
Nov 22, 1991 - Hawks vs. Sixers (Incomplete) *8 FGA
Mar 8, 1992 - Bulls vs. Sixers
Apr 4, 1992 - Sixers vs. Hawks

Dec 4, 1987 - Sonics vs. Sixers *2 FGA
Mar 23, 1988 - Bulls vs. Sixers
Nov 28, 1988 - Lakers vs. Sixers
1989 Playoffs Gm. 2 Sixers vs. Knicks
1989 Playoffs Gm. 3 Knicks vs. Sixers
Nov 17, 1989 - Spurs vs. Sixers *2 FGA
Dec 7, 1990 - Nuggets vs. Sixers
Mar 17, 1991 - Sixers vs. Celtics
1994 Playoffs Warriors vs. Suns (Full Series) *5 FGA
1994 Playoffs Suns vs. Rockets (Full Series) * 6 FGA
Mar 13, 1994 - Suns vs. Magic
Jan 17, 1995 - Nuggets vs. Suns *4 FGA
Jan 22, 1995 - Magic vs. Suns *2 FGA
Feb 7, 1995 - Suns vs. Mavericks
Mar 16, 1995 - Suns vs. Hornets
Mar 21, 1995 - Suns vs. Magic *1 FGA
1995 Playoffs Gm. 3 Suns vs. Blazers
Jan 28, 1996 - Suns vs. Bulls
Feb 6, 1996 - Bulls vs. Suns
1996 Playoffs Gm. 2 Suns vs. Spurs
Nov 2, 1996 - Rockets vs. Suns

[16 games below not included in play-type breakdown]

Nov. 28, 1987 - Sixers vs. Kings
Dec. 22, 1987 - Sixers vs. Celtics
Nov. 18, 1988 - Sixers vs. Knicks
Jan. 26, 1990 - Sixers vs. Bulls
Feb. 7, 1990 - Sixers vs. Warriors
Feb. 23, 1990 - Sixers vs. Lakers
Jan. 4, 1991 - Sixers vs. Jazz
Mar. 12, 1991 - Sixers vs. Hawks
Jan. 14, 1992 - Sixers vs. Bulls
1995 Playoffs Suns vs. Rockets (Full Series)

[Im Still Ballin]

Here are Giannis Antetokoumpo's shot charts for last year (73 games):

[Im Still Ballin]

There are actually several advantages in the modern NBA today for hiding a weak defender that wasn't there in the past.

For starters, players are more versatile on offense and defense, particularly big men. This makes more types of lineups viable. Secondly, there's no illegal defense, so you can more readily implement zone defense principles and help defense strategies like peel-switching and pre-switching.

It can actually be kind of hard to attack someone if they keep preemptively switching off-ball to the guy in the corner. Any team that spends an entire shot clock looking for that guy is going to score poorly. At a certain point you have to look for a good shot with the time you have in the possession.

Covering for Chuck would be easier than Jokic because he can be put on an SF, PF, or C. Nikola's kind of locked into the center spot. They tried playing him with Plumlee and Nurkic in the past and it wasn't pretty. But despite that lineup inflexibility, Denver made it work; they were the 8th-best defense last season and had an elite clutch and playoff defense in 2023 when they won the championship.

And I'm sure Denver could have a top 3-5 defense if they had better defenders around Jokic. Someone like Jaren Jackson Jr alone would probably do it. Add a Caruso as well and they'd be a lock.

I think Dallas had the best or 2nd-best defense in the league after they acquired PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford. When healthy, that defense was elite and it showed in the playoffs. I think Chuck's an easier guy to defensively cover than Luka.

Thanks to Harvey Pollack (Philly's former long-time statistician) we also have play-by-play data going back to the late '70s for the 76ers.



Chuck's net defensive rating (how many points the opponent scored per 100 possessions when he's on the court vs. off it) was -1.1 from 1984-85 to 1989-1990. Meaning, his team was 1.1 points better on defense when he was on the court. Across the entirety of his prime, he probably averages out close to a neutral net defensive rating.

Based on the plus/minus data, Sixers Barkley looks solid on defense until the last two years (1991/1992)

1985: -0.9
1986: -2.3
1987: -4.8
1988: +1.4
1989: -0.4
1990: +0.6

6 Year Average: -1.1 Net DRtg

[AlternativeAcc.]

Giannis two-way play and size just makes it an easy choice between the two. If Giannis isn't surrounded by shooters you can make an argument for rather having Barkley on offense but Giannis' Shaq like interior dominance, passing, and DPOY defense/rim protection is just way more valuable overall. It's not even close in this context. Barkleys mediocre midrange is useless for most teams.

You can talk about his shortcomings on offense but he put up a 35/13/5 on 66% TS performance in the finals. Now imagine him attacking the rim with Kyrie. Klay. and Bird spacing the perimeter and Malone forcing big men out of the paint.

[Manny98]

Just to touch on this... Malone shot 53% on long 2s during his peak 97/98 seasons on high volume.

Jordan during that same time shot 49%, Dirks peak in 2011 he was at 52% which was the highest of his career, and Garnett shot around 45%. Paul in his peak years was also around 45-46%. Kawhi at 44%, Kobe low 40s/high 30s....

So saying Malone doesn't space the floor, especially in the context where hed be surrounded by 3 of the greatest shooters ever, is actually one of the dumbest things ever uttered. Leave it to manny and rr3.

Both Giannis and Malone's playstyles clash, Giannis likes.driving to the basket and kicking out to 3 point shooters whilst Malone's entire game is playing the pick and roll with a point guard, on the court it's not an ideal fit unless you want to reduce Malone to a spot up shooter I guess

[AlternativeAcc.]

Both Giannis and Malone's playstyles clash, Giannis likes.driving to the basket and kicking out to 3 point shooters whilst Malone's entire game is playing the pick and roll with a point guard, on the court it's not an ideal fit unless you want to reduce Malone to a spot up shooter I guess

And Jokic likes passing to 3 point shooters too and you managed to have 1 on the roster who hits them at an elite clip. I guess you forget where I have 3 of the greatest shooters ever for Giannis to kick to. You're just reaching and saying nonsense.

Malone being a spot up midrange shooter and transition freak is fine, actually, and doesn't clash with anything. Teams today actually run the pick n roll far more than the Jazz did in the 90s. Malone was a very versatile offensive player who could easily adapt as a 3rd option scorer.

[iamgine]

Jrue

[tpols]

Is this dude making shitty teams again?

I remember one draft awhile back he picked Yao Ming and Elgin Baylor and a few more really wack picks

Legit had the worst team

He took Klay and Kyrie super early over guys like peak Pheonix Suns MVP Charles Barkley which speaks for itself.

I get that he sort of handicapped his teams build by having to base it all around Giannis who requires GOAT spacing for his game to be even remotely viable but he could've taken snipers like Petrovic, Peja, or Mark Price way later and scooped MVP talent with his early picks.

And then he wants to start Ewing next to Giannis when Pats whole offense was posting up on the block every possession. Yea he took midrange jumpers and hook shots but his offense started in the post every time. How does that work with giannis head down charge the paint style? There's a reason the Bucks have Brook Lopez @ center. A guy who never posts pretty much and just spots from 3 to give Giannis his driving lane.

And then homeboy has the nerve to criticize other people's teams.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He took Klay and Kyrie super early over guys like peak Pheonix Suns MVP Charles Barkley which speaks for itself.

I get that he sort of handicapped his teams build by having to base it all around Giannis who requires GOAT spacing for his game to be even remotely viable but he could've taken snipers like Petrovic, Peja, or Mark Price way later and scooped MVP talent with his early picks.

And then he wants to start Ewing next to Giannis when Pats whole offense was posting up on the block every possession. Yea he took midrange jumpers and hook shots but his offense started in the post every time. How does that work with giannis head down charge the paint style? There's a reason the Bucks have Brook Lopez @ center. A guy who never posts pretty much and just spots from 3 to give Giannis his driving lane.

And then homeboy has the nerve to criticize other people's teams.

I love how you're genuinely too stupid to realize you are contradicting yourself by saying I should've prioritized MVP talent over fit while also saying the MVP talent I took at center doesn't fit. So which is it you ****ing moron?

Yeah I could've taken guys who don't defend for my bench even though the point of the draft is to build the best starting lineup. Excellent insight.

Brook Lopez isn't actually respected by teams as a lethal shooter and is routinely guarded by forwards. He doesn't actually do anything to open up lanes for giannis. Ewing actually commands attention from centers and has the range to be respected enough to bring them out of the paint. Combine that with three of the greatest shooters ever on outside and you have insane team synergy.

Dude i honestly think there's at least a 50 point IQ gap between the two of us, and it's not in your favor. I destroy you every time you try to spar with me and you always dissappear after I point out how ****ing stupid your half-baked, pseudo-insightful, middle school level opinions are. You keep coming for more because you have more pride than intelligence. It's fascinating stuff.

[tpols]

Brook Lopez isn't actually respected by teams as a lethal shooter and is routinely guarded by forwards. He doesn't actually do anything to open up lanes for giannis. Ewing actually commands attention from centers and has the range to be respected

This is probably the most factually incorrect statement ever uttered on this website. Brook Lopez absolutely is respected from 3... he's one of the best 7 foot center 3pt shooters... literally of all time.

And Pat Ewing was a post player. He took jumpers out of the midrange and the post and was generally not efficient on them. His ability and range as a shooter aren't even close to Brook Lopez.

You are totally exposing yourself and that's why people are shitting on your team.

[AlternativeAcc.]

This is probably the most factually incorrect statement ever uttered on this website. Brook Lopez absolutely is respected from 3... he's one of the best 7 foot center 3pt shooters... literally of all time.

And Pat Ewing was a post player. He took jumpers out of the midrange and the post and was generally not efficient on them. His ability and range as a shooter aren't even close to Brook Lopez.

You are totally exposing yourself and that's why people are shitting on your team.

He shot 32% from 3 the year they won the finals and was guarded half-ass by forwards. Giannis was literally forced to go 1vs4 against the Sun's defense and still averaged 35 on 66%TS. with a 50pt closeout game.

Pat being a post player means he actually demands attention from centers. You can't just stick forwards on him like you can with Brook.I already explained this but again this is where the IQ thing comes in to play. You have a 70 IQ but the arrogance of a PHD student lol.

Hey man, at least you were right about the Mavs beating the Celtics and the Trump shooting being staged. Just high level stuff spewing from that skinny dome of yours.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Brook Lopez literally left wide open on every possession while being "guarded" by forwards and guards - shot 23 % from 3 for the series



And now all of a sudden Tpols cares about fit when he was harping on about MVP talent earlier. Low IQ is a nasty thing folks.

[Manny98]

Brook Lopez literally left wide open on every possession while being "guarded" by forwards and guards - shot 23 % from 3 for the series



And now all of a sudden Tpols cares about fit when he was harping on about MVP talent earlier. Low IQ is a nasty thing folks.

Lopez wasn't left wide open what are you on about, his presence on the court allowed Giannis to get to the basket a lot easier

Ewing is not providing close the amount of spacing that Lopez provided

[tpols]

Lopez wasn't left wide open what are you on about, his presence on the court allowed Giannis to get to the basket a lot easier

Ewing is not providing close the amount of spacing that Lopez provided

Exactly. I can't believe he's even arguing that.