Lebron has 4 gold medals and 6 silver medals.

[StrongLurk]

The worst thing about Lebron is his choking, not his finals record....

And yes, I agree that his finals record is enough to get him in the top ten of all time.

But what we've demonstrated here is that you can't show a single instance of someone claiming it's better to not make the finals. Which makes the entire premise of this thread invalid.

You're welcome.

Ah I forgot you are just a troll. Weren't you the guy who initially had Kobe, Shaq, and Lebron outside of the top ten?

[tpols]

When you put yourself in the GOAT debate, there is an inherent high expectation that comes with it. Lebron has played in a number of loaded teams (a lot of which he handpicked), and the benefit of a weak conference. But the ability to play consistently when the stakes are highest (finals), is a huge mark of a great player.

Exactly.

It's like Team USA winning silver or bronze. Nobody would be happy with that.

GOATs have different expectations and MJ was the Gold standard by far without team hopping every couple years in his prime with tons of star talent... and then still losing more than he won while doing that.

[StrongLurk]

When you put yourself in the GOAT debate, there is an inherent high expectation that comes with it. Lebron has played in a number of loaded teams (a lot of which he handpicked), and the benefit of a weak conference. But the ability to play consistently when the stakes are highest (finals), is a huge mark of a great player.

I agree the standards are high. 10 finals, 4 rings, 4 FMVP, 4 MVPs, 20 all-nba teams. Only MJ has a better resume in the 3 point era.

[StrongLurk]

Exactly.

It's like Team USA winning silver or bronze. Nobody would be happy with that.

GOATs have different expectations and MJ was the Gold standard by far without team hopping every couple years in his prime with tons of star talent... and then still losing more than he won while doing that.

Everyone loses more than they won. Remember all those times MJ lost BEFORE the finals?

I love how the Lebron haters are just proving my point while trying to say I am wrong. Tpols right here claiming "lebron lost more than he won". This is the illogical "Framing" of Lebron's resume, particularly the 4-6 finals record. The haters TRY to make it seem like going 4-6 in the finals is a "bad" thing. Making the finals itself as the best player on your team is a huge accomplishment no matter how you slice it.

Somehow Lebron having the second most "golds" in the 3-point era is still "losing" in their minds.

[Full Court]

Everyone loses more than they won. Remember all those times MJ lost BEFORE the finals?

I love how the Lebron haters are just proving my point while trying to say I am wrong. Tpols right here claiming "lebron lost more than he won". This is the illogical "Framing" of Lebron's resume, particularly the 4-6 finals record. The haters TRY to make it seem like going 4-6 in the finals is a "bad" thing. Making the finals itself as the best player on your team is a huge accomplishment no matter how you slice it.

Somehow Lebron having the second most "golds" in the 3-point era is still "losing" in their minds.

People on both sides of the issue tend to make overly-simplistic one-liners. "1-9 hehehe" or "4/10 hehehe."

That doesn't change the fact that when you look at the overall context, Lebron has underachieved. And that too is relative, because he's still one of the all time greats. But when you compare him to the other all time greats, nobody else has as many egregious choke jobs as he does. For example, in 2008 he had an epic choke job against the Celtics in the conference finals - something that doesn't get talked about much due to being overshadowed by his greatest-choke-job-of-all-time in 2011. That 2008 playoffs loss was DEFINITELY worse than if he had made it to the finals and lost there.

It's about expectations. When you're expected to win, and you blow it, it's a black mark. Like it or not. If you go to a super team (not to mention make a documentary trying to sugar coat it), claim you're going to win eight titles, then go on to have the worst choke job of all time and ultimately only end up winning two, most people are going to consider that underachievement.

We've already established that you do not consider it underachievement, but your supporting argument lacks any context. It boils down to "silver medals are still pretty good." Ok....sure.

[StrongLurk]

People on both sides of the issue tend to make overly-simplistic one-liners. "1-9 hehehe" or "4/10 hehehe."

That doesn't change the fact that when you look at the overall context, Lebron has underachieved. And that too is relative, because he's still one of the all time greats. But when you compare him to the other all time greats, nobody else has as many egregious choke jobs as he does. For example, in 2008 he had an epic choke job against the Celtics in the conference finals - something that doesn't get talked about much due to being overshadowed by his greatest-choke-job-of-all-time in 2011. That 2008 playoffs loss was DEFINITELY worse than if he had made it to the finals and lost there.

It's about expectations. When you're expected to win, and you blow it, it's a black mark. Like it or not. If you go to a super team (not to mention make a documentary trying to sugar coat it), claim you're going to win eight titles, then go on to have the worst choke job of all time and ultimately only end up winning two, most people are going to consider that underachievement.

We've already established that you do not consider it underachievement, but your supporting argument lacks any context. It boils down to "silver medals are still pretty good." Ok....sure.

Your entire "Lebron chokes" schtick was completely disproven a while back. We saw that troll thread buddy So yeah, your comments on Lebron choking and underachieve are completely false.

You are bad at trolling.

You can't troll facts -> Lebron has the second most GOLDs besides MJ, and also has 6 2nd place finishes too. Only MJ's resume is better as evidenced by my OP.

Again go ahead and claim finals losses are bad and don't count...we can look at just the gold numbers if you want.

[Full Court]

Your entire "Lebron chokes" schtick was completely disproven a while back. We saw that troll thread buddy So yeah, your comments on Lebron choking and underachieve are completely false.

You are bad at trolling.

You can't troll facts -> Lebron has the second most GOLDs besides MJ, and also has 6 2nd place finishes too. Only MJ's resume is better as evidenced by my OP.

Again go ahead and claim finals losses are bad and don't count...we can look at just the gold numbers if you want.

You call it "trolling," but none of you have been able to counter my list of choke jobs with anything other than attempts to redefine what a choke is. Here's the data (updated with his two choke jobs against Denver this past season):



2007 game 1 against Detroit. 10 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Game 2 against Detroit. 19 points on 37% shooting. LOSS.

Game 1 against the Spurs. 14 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.

2008 game 1 against Boston. 12 points and 10 turnovers on 11% shooting. 0/6 from three. LOSS.

Game 2 against Boston. 21 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against Boston. 21 points on 31% shooting.

Game 4 against Boston. 21 points on 35% shooting.

2009 game 3 against Orlando. He scored 41 points, but on absolutely horrendous efficiency. 39% shooting and 1/8 from three. LOSS. Someone should have made him stop shooting.

2010 game 5 against Boston. 15 points on 21% shooting!!! LOSS. The series was tied 2-2 until that game. That Lebron choke put the Cavs down 3-2, and they went on to lose the series.

2011 game 1 against Philadelphia. 21 points on 29% shooting.

Game 5 against Philadelphia. 16 points on 39% shooting.

Game 3 against Boston. 15 points on 38% shooting. LOSS.

Game 1 against Chicago. 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Finals against Dallas. Most epic choke job of all time. Game 3, 17 points.

Game 4, 8 points on 27% shooting. LOSS.

Game 5, 17 points. LOSS.

Game 6, 21 points and 6 turnovers. LOSS.

2013 game 2 against San Antonio. 17 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against San Antonio, 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Game 5 against San Antonio, 25 points on 36% shooting. LOSS.

2014 game 5 against Indiana. 7 points on 20% shooting. Whooaaaaaaaa! LOSS.

2015 game 1 against Chicago. 19 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.

Game 6 against Chicago. 15 points on 30% shooting.

Game 4 against Golden State. 20 points on 32% shooting.

2016 game 3 against Detroit. 20 points on 33% shooting.

Game 2 against Golden State. 19 points on 42% shooting. LOSS.

2017 game 3 against Boston. 11 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.

2018 game 1 against Indiana. 24 points on 41% shooting. 0% from three. LOSS.

Game 1 against Boston. 15 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.

2020 game 2 against Portland. 10 points on 36% shooting.

Game 1 against Houston. 20 points. LOSS.

Game 4 against Houston. 16 points on 41% shooting.

Game 1 against Denver. 15 points.

2021 game 1 against Phoenix. 18 points on 46% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against Phoenix. 21 points and 7 turnovers on 47% shooting.

Game 6 against Phoenix. 29 points on 11/26 shooting. ELIMINATION.

2023 game 5 against Memphis. 15 points on 29% shooting. 1-9 from three. LOSS.

Game 1 against Golden State. 22 points on 38% shooting. 1-8 from three.

Game 2 against Denver. 22 points. 0-6 from three. LOSS.

Game 4 against Denver. Wasted multiple possessions in 4th quarter, missed key shots, and blew the game-tying shot in the last possession. SWEPT.

2024 game 1 against Denver. 0 points in the fourth quarter of a close game. Actually, he had two points, but that was from an uncontested layup in the final minute of the game after Denver had already closed the game out. LOSS

Game 2 against Denver. The game is tied and the Lakers have the final possession. Instead of running the clock down, Lebron clanks a low-IQ three point shot, leaving Denver with plenty of time for a final possession. Murray, who is way more clutch than Lebron, makes the buzzer beater. LOSS.



If his career goes on for too many more years, I'll run out of character space for his choke jobs.

[StrongLurk]

You call it "trolling," but none of you have been able to counter my list of choke jobs with anything other than attempts to redefine what a choke is. Here's the data (updated with his two choke jobs against Denver this past season):



2007 game 1 against Detroit. 10 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Game 2 against Detroit. 19 points on 37% shooting. LOSS.

Game 1 against the Spurs. 14 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.

2008 game 1 against Boston. 12 points and 10 turnovers on 11% shooting. 0/6 from three. LOSS.

Game 2 against Boston. 21 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against Boston. 21 points on 31% shooting.

Game 4 against Boston. 21 points on 35% shooting.

2009 game 3 against Orlando. He scored 41 points, but on absolutely horrendous efficiency. 39% shooting and 1/8 from three. LOSS. Someone should have made him stop shooting.

2010 game 5 against Boston. 15 points on 21% shooting!!! LOSS. The series was tied 2-2 until that game. That Lebron choke put the Cavs down 3-2, and they went on to lose the series.

2011 game 1 against Philadelphia. 21 points on 29% shooting.

Game 5 against Philadelphia. 16 points on 39% shooting.

Game 3 against Boston. 15 points on 38% shooting. LOSS.

Game 1 against Chicago. 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Finals against Dallas. Most epic choke job of all time. Game 3, 17 points.

Game 4, 8 points on 27% shooting. LOSS.

Game 5, 17 points. LOSS.

Game 6, 21 points and 6 turnovers. LOSS.

2013 game 2 against San Antonio. 17 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against San Antonio, 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Game 5 against San Antonio, 25 points on 36% shooting. LOSS.

2014 game 5 against Indiana. 7 points on 20% shooting. Whooaaaaaaaa! LOSS.

2015 game 1 against Chicago. 19 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.

Game 6 against Chicago. 15 points on 30% shooting.

Game 4 against Golden State. 20 points on 32% shooting.

2016 game 3 against Detroit. 20 points on 33% shooting.

Game 2 against Golden State. 19 points on 42% shooting. LOSS.

2017 game 3 against Boston. 11 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.

2018 game 1 against Indiana. 24 points on 41% shooting. 0% from three. LOSS.

Game 1 against Boston. 15 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.

2020 game 2 against Portland. 10 points on 36% shooting.

Game 1 against Houston. 20 points. LOSS.

Game 4 against Houston. 16 points on 41% shooting.

Game 1 against Denver. 15 points.

2021 game 1 against Phoenix. 18 points on 46% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against Phoenix. 21 points and 7 turnovers on 47% shooting.

Game 6 against Phoenix. 29 points on 11/26 shooting. ELIMINATION.

2023 game 5 against Memphis. 15 points on 29% shooting. 1-9 from three. LOSS.

Game 1 against Golden State. 22 points on 38% shooting. 1-8 from three.

Game 2 against Denver. 22 points. 0-6 from three. LOSS.

Game 4 against Denver. Wasted multiple possessions in 4th quarter, missed key shots, and blew the game-tying shot in the last possession. SWEPT.

2024 game 1 against Denver. 0 points in the fourth quarter of a close game. Actually, he had two points, but that was from an uncontested layup in the final minute of the game after Denver had already closed the game out. LOSS

Game 2 against Denver. The game is tied and the Lakers have the final possession. Instead of running the clock down, Lebron clanks a low-IQ three point shot, leaving Denver with plenty of time for a final possession. Murray, who is way more clutch than Lebron, makes the buzzer beater. LOSS.



If his career goes on for too many more years, I'll run out of character space for his choke jobs.

Again this was already debunked. His RATIO of elite games/series is far higher than any other player outside of MJ. So you can pick out his bad games all you want, it doesn't change the fact that he has way more good ones. For every bad game he has, he has 10 good ones.

So yeah you are an idiot. You'll have to come up with something else because everything you've posted in this thread is wrong

[StrongLurk]

Anyways back to the OP. Here is a quick summary of finals results below. Clearly MJ and Lebron are above the rest.

MJ: 6 gold medals
Lebron: 4 gold medals, 6 silver medals
Shaq: 3 gold medals, 2 silver medals
Duncan: 3 gold medals, 1 silver medal
Magic: 3 gold medals, 4 silver medals
Kareem: 2 gold medals, 4 silver medals
Kobe: 2 gold medals, 2 silver medals
Bird: 2 gold medals, 2 silver medals
Durant: 2 gold medals, 1 silver medal
Curry: 1 gold medal, 2 silver medals

[tpols]

Your "medal" rankings are also down right embarrassing as well.

Like... Curry has 1 Gold Medal? Because he didn't win FMVP over Iggy who averaged like 10ppg on the year while Steph was the league MVP?

Duncan's 2007 ring doesn't count as a Gold Medal because Tony Parker won FMVP?

Bird and Magics titles don't count as Gold Medal because Maxwell and Worthy had great Finals series?

Despite being his best championship playoff run ever Kobes 2001 15-1 superstar playoff run doesn't count in this criteria?



OP, you are a certified clown.

[Full Court]

Ah I forgot you are just a troll. Weren't you the guy who initially had Kobe, Shaq, and Lebron outside of the top ten?

Lol. Another straw man. I have Kobe outside of the top ten. The other two are in. Nice try.

Here's a question for you: is it better to WIN the finals than to make it to the finals and not win?

[Full Court]

Again this was already debunked. His RATIO of elite games/series is far higher than any other player outside of MJ. So you can pick out his bad games all you want, it doesn't change the fact that he has way more good ones. For every bad game he has, he has 10 good ones.

So yeah you are an idiot. You'll have to come up with something else because everything you've posted in this thread is wrong

"debunked"...... Not hardly. Bronie fluffers denying it is hardly "debunking."

You make arbitray claims, that you're repeating from someone else, that the RATIO is better than other players, but you or anyone else have yet to prove it with data. I claimed that Lebron has the most choke jobs of any all time "great." Then I proved it. Then you guys come back and whine about "Bu-bu-but RATIOS!!!!" and the only one who even TRIED to counter that was 1987_Lakers, who then posted about five choke jobs from Larry Bird. Yep, a mere handful.

You guys lose this argument over and over and over. That's ok though. I'll keep setting you guys straight. ;)

[Full Court]

Your "medal" rankings are also down right embarrassing as well.

Like... Curry has 1 Gold Medal? Because he didn't win FMVP over Iggy who averaged like 10ppg on the year while Steph was the league MVP?

Duncan's 2007 ring doesn't count as a Gold Medal because Tony Parker won FMVP?

Bird and Magics titles don't count as Gold Medal because Maxwell and Worthy had great Finals series?

Despite being his best championship playoff run ever Kobes 2001 15-1 superstar playoff run doesn't count in this criteria?



OP, you are a certified clown.

Lebron wouldn't even have gotten a gold medal this Olympics if Curry didn't carry him across the finish line. By the way, anyone know where Lebron was in the fourth quarters of the medal games???

[StrongLurk]

"debunked"...... Not hardly. Bronie fluffers denying it is hardly "debunking."

You make arbitray claims, that you're repeating from someone else, that the RATIO is better than other players, but you or anyone else have yet to prove it with data. I claimed that Lebron has the most choke jobs of any all time "great." Then I proved it. Then you guys come back and whine about "Bu-bu-but RATIOS!!!!" and the only one who even TRIED to counter that was 1987_Lakers, who then posted about five choke jobs from Larry Bird. Yep, a mere handful.

You guys lose this argument over and over and over. That's ok though. I'll keep setting you guys straight. ;)

No one denied that Lebron has plenty of bad playoff games, but its literally because he has the MOST playoff games ever played.

Him having 35 bad playoff games out of 287 total games is not a big deal. You could probably find 35 bad playoff games by Kobe who only played 220 total playoff games.

You are just an idiot who doesn't seem to understand. You trying to claim Bird is a better playoff performer than Lebron just shows how dumb you are.

[StrongLurk]

Your "medal" rankings are also down right embarrassing as well.

Like... Curry has 1 Gold Medal? Because he didn't win FMVP over Iggy who averaged like 10ppg on the year while Steph was the league MVP?

Duncan's 2007 ring doesn't count as a Gold Medal because Tony Parker won FMVP?

Bird and Magics titles don't count as Gold Medal because Maxwell and Worthy had great Finals series?

Despite being his best championship playoff run ever Kobes 2001 15-1 superstar playoff run doesn't count in this criteria?



OP, you are a certified clown.

When judging finals on an all-time scale, the FMVP is the key point.

Otherwise we can say something like this -> Scottie Pippen is 6-0 in the finals. He's the goat.

We need to differentiate the best player from those who weren't.