Dennis Rodman: How good was he actually at his best?

[Reggie43]

First play Harper helps out on Shaq to prevent the entry pass

Second play Kukoc and Pippen took turns on helping out on Shaq once he makes a move with the ball

Last 2 plays Jordan provide help defense late and they force a turnover then Rodman fouls Shaq late while Jordan still provides help D

[Phoenix]

One, I dont take online conversations seriously for the most part. 2nd, I didn't say Rodman exclusively solo covered him. Alot of it depends on what sets the Magic were running and whether the other Bulls defenders were even in position to double or be close enough to just swipe at the ball to force Shaq to pass. You can see the play happening and pretty much tell if it was gonna be a single coverage play or if one of the other Bulls were gonna soft/hard double. The worst thing that can happen defensively against Shaq is allowing him to catch the ball and within 3 seconds he's under the basket. At that point it's either a score or a foul( or worse case, and-1). Rodman being able to make it harder for him to get great position caused forced shots or allows the other Bulls defenders the ability to quickly collapse while still defend the perimeter. It kept Shaq guessing. Like all great players you aren't gonna stop him from getting numbers, you want to make him work for them and contain everyone else. And Shaq at that stage was still developing as far as making great decisions in the post. 2000 era Laker Shaq would have been much harder for Rodman because he had bulked up and he was much better as a post passer and decision maker.

[Phoenix]

First play Harper helps out on Shaq to prevent the entry pass

Second play Kukoc and Pippen took turns on helping out on Shaq once he makes a move with the ball

Last 2 plays Jordan provide help defense late and they force a turnover then Rodman fouls Shaq late while Jordan still provides help D

The first play Harper is shading to deny the entry pass, but when I say playing straight up I'm referring to what happens after the catch and Shaq starts getting into his dribble backdown. Ideally you want to double off the catch rather than let the post player dribble himself into great scoring position. Especially someone of Shaqs physical prowess and with guys like Dennis Scott or Nick Anderson waiting for open looks.

The 2nd play was good, Kukoc used his length to swipe and then get back out to Penny, then Pippen comes over to force the pass out. What you may not have noted is that Shaq probably caught the ball further away from the basket than he wanted to, which puts the Bulls defenders in position to do what you described.

[ILLsmak]

Its just conversation bro dont take it too seriously but in regards to the topic I guess we just see it differently how the Bulls provide help defense for Rodman sometimes even before he catches the ball, somebody always within arms length to provide help and double team but if you see that as defending straight up a lot of the time we just have to agree to disagree

I feel like you're trolling, but in regards to Dale Davis, you guys talk about being an enforcer and scoring, ok.

Was Dale Davis an all time great ball getter? No. Could Davis hit 3s? No. Could Davis start the break well with great outlets? No. Could Davis make good reads and passes out of the post? No.

Could Davis defense the perimeter? No. Could Davis defend an all time great post player? No.

What was Dale probably better at doing? Finishing inside and shot blocking.

They are wildly different. Horace is definitely an all star and he could play on some teams, but as I said before, I take Rodman as a second guy, not a third guy. People need to realize what the forward position is actually doing. A lot of the guys you probably like at forward played more like guards. Rodman is an all time great forward. There is almost nothing he leaves on the table. If he had the green light, he probably could have been wet from 3, too.

You don't post Rodman hard, but he can make post passes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2EMupX5czo

Even if you wanna give Davis an equal impact as an 'enforcer' and 'rebounder/defender,' Rodman still does way more than him, but unfort, it's not the same at all. If you put Rodman on a team with Reggie and Smits, he would shine.

-Smak

[sdot_thadon]

I feel like you're trolling, but in regards to Dale Davis, you guys talk about being an enforcer and scoring, ok.

Was Dale Davis an all time great ball getter? No. Could Davis hit 3s? No. Could Davis start the break well with great outlets? No. Could Davis make good reads and passes out of the post? No.

Could Davis defense the perimeter? No. Could Davis defend an all time great post player? No.

What was Dale probably better at doing? Finishing inside and shot blocking.

They are wildly different. Horace is definitely an all star and he could play on some teams, but as I said before, I take Rodman as a second guy, not a third guy. People need to realize what the forward position is actually doing. A lot of the guys you probably like at forward played more like guards. Rodman is an all time great forward. There is almost nothing he leaves on the table. If he had the green light, he probably could have been wet from 3, too.

You don't post Rodman hard, but he can make post passes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2EMupX5czo

Even if you wanna give Davis an equal impact as an 'enforcer' and 'rebounder/defender,' Rodman still does way more than him, but unfort, it's not the same at all. If you put Rodman on a team with Reggie and Smits, he would shine.

-Smak

Because of the antics most fans couldn't see the iq Dennis had. This guy's rebounding was just as much anticipation and positioning as the athletic and aggression aspects of it too. His passing was definitely above average for a big man in that time too and that clip shows his understanding of the triangle in addition to the passing acumen. The triangle wasn't a cake walk for most to learn as far as basketball systems go.

[Phoenix]

Because of the antics most fans couldn't see the iq Dennis had. This guy's rebounding was just as much anticipation and positioning as the athletic and aggression aspects of it too. His passing was definitely above average for a big man in that time too and that clip shows his understanding of the triangle in addition to the passing acumen. The triangle wasn't a cake walk for most to learn as far as basketball systems go.

Did you see the Rodman episode on 'the Last Dance'? Dude broke down the art of rebounding to a science. Then you understand how a guy 6'6, at most 6'7 was grabbing 18 boards in an age of great centers/Pfs and packed paints.

[jayfan]

Pistons Rodman and Bulls Rodman were two different players. And both were great.

Pistons Rodman was more dynamic and athletic. A freak perimeter defender & weak-side help defender for his size. And could fill the lane and run the break like a whirling dervish. His best version.

Bulls Rodman was a great interior defender, enforcer and play-maker.

Both versions were GOAT-level rebounders, but Bulls Rodman refined it.

[Reggie43]

I feel like you're trolling, but in regards to Dale Davis, you guys talk about being an enforcer and scoring, ok.

Was Dale Davis an all time great ball getter? No. Could Davis hit 3s? No. Could Davis start the break well with great outlets? No. Could Davis make good reads and passes out of the post? No.

Could Davis defense the perimeter? No. Could Davis defend an all time great post player? No.

What was Dale probably better at doing? Finishing inside and shot blocking.

They are wildly different. Horace is definitely an all star and he could play on some teams, but as I said before, I take Rodman as a second guy, not a third guy. People need to realize what the forward position is actually doing. A lot of the guys you probably like at forward played more like guards. Rodman is an all time great forward. There is almost nothing he leaves on the table. If he had the green light, he probably could have been wet from 3, too.

You don't post Rodman hard, but he can make post passes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2EMupX5czo

Even if you wanna give Davis an equal impact as an 'enforcer' and 'rebounder/defender,' Rodman still does way more than him, but unfort, it's not the same at all. If you put Rodman on a team with Reggie and Smits, he would shine.

-Smak

Was not really saying he was good as Rodman in his prime but that he would have been a good enough replacement for the Pistons/Bulls still win rings half the time or atleast lets say 97 or 98 when Rodman was old and past his prime

[Reggie43]

Fans get stuck on the idea that because X team won with X player that they could only win with X players specific skillset and nothing more. They dont take into consideration that a team as smart as the 90s Bulls for example could adjust with playing with another type of player and cover for his weaknesses and enhance his strengths. They might not be as good but they could still win because of how good Jordan, Pippen and Phil were

[L.Kizzle]

Love the discussion. When I originally made the thread, it was more so not is Rodman better than one of the Davis Boys but more so other fellow Hall of Famers.
We see Rodman ranked higher than a guy like Chris Mullin all the time now. But was it that way in 1991? Was he even considered greater than another defensive minded player like Mutombo or Alonzo Mourning.

If he wasn't, when did things change?

[Phoenix]

Love the discussion. When I originally made the thread, it was more so not is Rodman better than one of the Davis Boys but more so other fellow Hall of Famers.
We see Rodman ranked higher than a guy like Chris Mullin all the time now. But was it that way in 1991? Was he even considered greater than another defensive minded player like Mutombo or Alonzo Mourning.

If he wasn't, when did things change?

Its not a simple 1:1 comparison with someone like a Chris Mullin because defensive oriented players are kind of in their own category( and frankly don't get the same level of respect that offensive stars get). I think Dennis was viewed at his best as a transcendent defensive player, sort of a 1 of 1 type. Mullin was a great scorer/ shooter and had a 4 year run as an all-nba player. His career body of work wasn't better than Dennis even if you want to say he was better in a vacuum at their respective best. To me it's like comparing apples and pizza asking which is better.

Its almost like asking who was better, either in totality of their career or just in a vacuum, Ben Wallace who had anchored Detroits defense for a half decade and won a title, or Gilbert Arenas who had 3-4 years of being a great scorer and all NBA player? Who should rank higher? Like how should these things should be measured?

[L.Kizzle]

Its not a simple 1:1 comparison with someone like a Chris Mullin because defensive oriented players are kind of in their own category( and frankly don't get the same level of respect that offensive stars get). I think Dennis was viewed at his best as a transcendent defensive player, sort of a 1 of 1 type. Mullin was a great scorer/ shooter and had a 4 year run as an all-nba player. His career body of work wasn't better than Dennis even if you want to say he was better in a vacuum at their respective best. To me it's like comparing apples and pizza asking which is better.

Its almost like asking who was better, either in totality of their career or just in a vacuum, Ben Wallace who had anchored Detroits defense for a half decade and won a title, or Gilbert Arenas who had 3-4 years of being a great scorer and all NBA player? Who should rank higher? Like how should these things should be measured?

Ben Wallace situation is different. EVERYONE considered Big Ben as the player for the Pistons. The leader and even the best player. Rodman was never the leader or best player for any of his teams.

If we go back to I guess 1988-1998, how many seasons was Mullin considered better than Rodman? I mean, that's an honest question.

[Phoenix]

Ben Wallace situation is different. EVERYONE considered Big Ben as the player for the Pistons. The leader and even the best player. Rodman was never the leader or best player for any of his teams.

If we go back to I guess 1988-1998, how many seasons was Mullin considered better than Rodman? I mean, that's an honest question.

But how then do people even measure Ben Wallace against Rip or Chauncey Billups? You keep bringing up Mullin for an obvious reason, his scoring prowess as compared to Rodman. Ben Wallace was such a great defender and rebounder, and one could argue he was the best or most important on the 04 Pistons but that was a team of good to really good players with no dominant superstar, which makes that an easier claim. Big Ben wouldn't have been the best player on the 89/90 Pistons or the Bulls 96/97/98 teams. So ultimately an irrelevant point. Its very possible that peak Rodman on the 04 Pistons also blurs the line with who the 'best' player was.

One could argue Rodmans prowess as a defender/rebounder and the other intangibles he brought were more conducive to winning than Mullin's scoring. But again its not a 1:1 comparison, because you're debating Rodman's contributions as an elite defender/rebounder to winning against Mullin scoring alot of points and losing. You can find hundreds of guys, and I'm not saying this as a knock on Mullin, that can score 25 before you find what Rodman did. But that's if you can value what he did without looking at PPG or however else the term 'better' is being quantified here.

[L.Kizzle]

But how then do people even measure Ben Wallace against Rip or Chauncey Billups? You keep bringing up Mullin for an obvious reason, his scoring prowess as compared to Rodman. Ben Wallace was such a great defender and rebounder, and one could argue he was the best or most important on the 04 Pistons but that was a team of good to really good players with no dominant superstar, which makes that an easier claim. Big Ben wouldn't have been the best player on the 89/90 Pistons or the Bulls 96/97/98 teams. So ultimately an irrelevant point. Its very possible that peak Rodman on the 04 Pistons also blurs the line with who the 'best' player was.

One could argue Rodmans prowess as a defender/rebounder and the other intangibles he brought were more conducive to winning than Mullin's scoring. But again its not a 1:1 comparison, because you're debating Rodman's contributions as an elite defender/rebounder to winning against Mullin scoring alot of points and losing. You can find hundreds of guys, and I'm not saying this as a knock on Mullin, that can score 25 before you find what Rodman did. But that's if you can value what he did without looking at PPG or however else the term 'better' is being quantified here.

I mention Mullin because I was trying to find someone who played basically the same era as Rodman. And he's also a Hall of Famer.
I could use a non Hall of Famer, Shawn Kemp. I grew up in the 90s and I know for a fact the majority would take Kemp over Rodman. The 96 Finals, Kemp was 23/10 on 55% FG, Rodman 7/14.

[Phoenix]

I mention Mullin because I was trying to find someone who played basically the same era as Rodman. And he's also a Hall of Famer.
I could use a non Hall of Famer, Shawn Kemp. I grew up in the 90s and I know for a fact the majority would take Kemp over Rodman. The 96 Finals, Kemp was 23/10 on 55% FG, Rodman 7/14.

Rodman was good enough in the Finals that some argue he had an argument for finals MVP. The question of who is better with him and Kemp isn't much different than with Mullin. How are we defining better when comparing people with vastly different skillsets and roles? I think its the same, Rodman ended up with the more decorated career. Yes, I can easily say Kemp on the Bulls wins chips with 1000% more conviction than saying Dale Davis would, but circumstances do play a role with these rankings. Kemp in a bubble was probably better/more impactful than Mullin for that matter. At no point have you really quantified what you mean by better though. Frankly it doesn't really matter to me, but I could better understand your angle. Better because he scored more? Better as a two-way player( that would be the most obvious argument for Kemp as a player over Rodman compared to Mullin).