Dennis Rodman: How good was he actually at his best?

[ILLsmak]

dudes are forgetting Rodman could be a number 2 with the right player. If you take the Bulls for example, if you replace Pip with him and you have... MJ, Rodman, Kukoc, that's still a very solid team. His lack of scoring means you have to have two players who can score well, though.

Rodman was dumped by SAS and then retired as a Bull. Sure he did the LA/DAL thing, but... he had great success with DET, had a hard time adjusting to SAS (for two years, still got MVP votes? He wasn't the 3rd guy there, he was the 2nd, alongside a big (basically one of the worst situations for him to be in.)

Rodman is one of the best number 3s of all time, but people are underrating him as a number 2. I think if you can have your pick of anyone, there is a case to pick rodman second. That is a value you cannot get elsewhere. I think that's what people are missing. Sure people could have replaced him, but his value was still way higher than theirs.

-Smak

[sdot_thadon]

Exaggeration how? Are you arguing that someone first team all-defense and lead the league in rebounds with guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning and Mutumbo in the league was a minor player in that? Kukoc was vital to this but not Rodman? A guy that equaled the all-time record for offensive rebounds TWICE in the finals but meh, Dale Davis will do. What 96 FMVP votes did Kukoc get?

FOH with this bullshit. This is where you need to take your own advice of stopping with the nonsense.

Yeah i think we're doing Worm a disservice throwing these guys names out like that. Not saying Oak wasn't a tough, quality forward, same for Davis but Rodman was unique and maybe under appreciated because of it. And when we talk about him I'm always one to bring up his iq because once I heard stories I was kind of blown away from what I thought of him in real time. He said he learned the triangle in like 15 minutes and Winter confirmed at some point he was in fact one of the fastest to learn the offense. And for the younger fans here, the reason it's a significant thing to mention is the triangle was notoriously difficult for some players to learn. Ron Harper was a lead dog on his own team before playing in chicago, yet he struggled mightily to learn the offense the 1st season and his numbers didn't ever reflect his talent level in Chicago. So for a guy most saw unjustly as just a role player to grasp and master it so quickly is noteworthy.

[Phoenix]

Yeah i think we're doing Worm a disservice throwing these guys names out like that. Not saying Oak wasn't a tough, quality forward, same for Davis but Rodman was unique and maybe under appreciated because of it. And when we talk about him I'm always one to bring up his iq because once I heard stories I was kind of blown away from what I thought of him in real time. He said he learned the triangle in like 15 minutes and Winter confirmed at some point he was in fact one of the fastest to learn the offense. And for the younger fans here, the reason it's a significant thing to mention is the triangle was notoriously difficult for some players to learn. Ron Harper was a lead dog on his own team before playing in chicago, yet he struggled mightily to learn the offense the 1st season and his numbers didn't ever reflect his talent level in Chicago. So for a guy most saw unjustly as just a role player to grasp and master it so quickly is noteworthy.

No-one throwing out these other names have actually bothered explaining why someone like Dale Davis or Charles Oakley are simple plug and plays. It's like the mindset is 'what bruiser forward type who averaged 10/10 can I throw out there?' But while Rodman could get physical he also had much greater defensive versatility than those guys on top of just being a flat out better rebounder. Pistons Rodman could defend positions 1-4. The older,slower Bulls Rodman could still defend 4s and 5s' and some 3s. Guys like Oakley and Dale Davis got 10 boards mostly banging and being in proximity of the basket. Rodman was all over the court diving for loose balls, could board and throw bullet outlet passes leading to an easy 2 for Jordan/Pippen on the break, could read the Triangle very well as you said and make the correct pass, and did things to get under the opponents skin; he was a psychological master and would get guys out of their comfort zone.
Scoring-wise yeah someone like Oakley gave you a bit more but Rodman was one of the best, if not the best, offensive rebounders most years which led to more possessions, generally equaling out someone like Davis or Oakley giving you an extra 4-5 points depending on the year.

He was simply a more active and dynamic player. These guys on here are like 'well lets see umm Dale Davis could score 10 points and could get 9-10 rebounds so ummmm yeah that's good enough'. Rodman was great at getting 'timely' rebounds, or drawing momentum changing charges, he just did what is referred to as 'winning' plays but he's just being, as far as I can tell, boiled down to some simple bruiser type who just grabbed a bunch of boards, and I guess scoring a few less points equals out to grabbing more rebounds or something. Frankly I don't know what formula they're using.

[Norcaliblunt]

Dude was a freak who lucked up joining two great teams with real coaches and real superstars.

The spurs is a great example of how much of loser dude really was. Was a straight flake when he had no guidance.

Yeah he’s a great rebounder and defender but that’s it.

Dude would not be remembered if he never colored his hair and acted a fool. Surely would never be remembered at all if he didn’t play for those legendary Piston and Bulls teams.

Dudes barely remembered now. It takes North Korea and LeBron homers make this dude relevant.

[Norcaliblunt]

Honestly I’d take

Tony Allen
Bruce Bowen
AC Green
Shawn Marion
Ron Artest
Josh Howard
Richard Dumas
Reggie Lewis
Dan Marjele
Joe Johnson
Rashard Lewis
Raja Bell
Mitch Richmond
Sean Elliot
Etc
Etc
Etc

Over Rodman any day.

[Norcaliblunt]

Rodman ain’t better than

Stephen Jackson
Jason Richardson
Draymond Green
Klay Thompson
Charles Oakley
Anthony Mason
Etc
Etc

[HoopsNY]

Yeah i think we're doing Worm a disservice throwing these guys names out like that. Not saying Oak wasn't a tough, quality forward, same for Davis but Rodman was unique and maybe under appreciated because of it. And when we talk about him I'm always one to bring up his iq because once I heard stories I was kind of blown away from what I thought of him in real time. He said he learned the triangle in like 15 minutes and Winter confirmed at some point he was in fact one of the fastest to learn the offense. And for the younger fans here, the reason it's a significant thing to mention is the triangle was notoriously difficult for some players to learn. Ron Harper was a lead dog on his own team before playing in chicago, yet he struggled mightily to learn the offense the 1st season and his numbers didn't ever reflect his talent level in Chicago. So for a guy most saw unjustly as just a role player to grasp and master it so quickly is noteworthy.

Good point. Ron Harper is a good example but another example is Glen Rice. Rice didn't fit well with the triangle offense and didn't like it either. Rodman adapted well, probably because he wasn't a scorer, but also because he was a good passer, something that gets left out of the conversation a lot.

Rodman won DPOY in 1990 and 1991. His contributions are understated when it comes to those late 80s and early 90s Bad Boyz Pistons teams. Look at the following:

DET w/Rodman '93: 36-26 (48 win pace)
DET w/o Rodman '93: 4-16 (17 win pace)

Rodman leaves after '93 and there are some shakeups, but Detroit wins just 20 games. He joins SAS and they go from being a 49 win team to a 55 win team, and then the following season 62 wins. He was a locker room problem but we can't ignore SAS play with him.

But here's the interesting thing about '95. Rodman played just 49 games:

'95 SAS w/Rodman: 40-9 (67 win pace)
'95 SAS w/o Rodman: 22-11 (52 win pace)

The discrepancy is a little skewed because the following season, SAS went on to win 59 games. But I think a lot of that had to do with Sean Elliott's elevated play. Point is, Rodman was an obvious ceiling raiser.

'96 CHI w/Rodman: 57-7 (73 win pace)
'96 CHI w/o Rodman: 15-3 (68 win pace)

The regular season numbers don't show it as much but Rodman's play in the playoffs I think summed it up well.

'97 CHI w/Rodman: 48-7 (72 win pace)
'97 CHI w/o Rodman: 21-6 (64 win pace)

Then in '99 he joins the Lakers:

'99 LAL w/Rodman 17-6 (61 win pace)
'99 LAL w/o Rodman: 14-13 (42 win pace)

There's just so much evidence of Rodman's contributions. As a third best player, it's really hard to think of anyone else I'd rather have in all of league history, and that includes Elgin, Manu, Klay, Ray, Grant, etc.

[HoopsNY]

Rodman ain’t better than

Stephen Jackson
Jason Richardson
Draymond Green
Klay Thompson
Charles Oakley
Anthony Mason
Etc
Etc

I'm taking Rodman as a third best player over all of those guys, especially if you have the scoring you need from a 1-2 punch like Steph/KD, Kobe/Shaq, MJ/Scottie, West/Wilt, Bird/McHale, Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Wade, LeBron/Kyrie, LeBron/AD, Tatum/Brown, etc.

[RRR3]

Norcaliblunt continuing to prove he's dumb as a rock. Richard Dumas lmao

[iamgine]

Exaggeration how? Are you arguing that someone first team all-defense and lead the league in rebounds with guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning and Mutumbo in the league was a minor player in that? Kukoc was vital to this but not Rodman? A guy that equaled the all-time record for offensive rebounds TWICE in the finals but meh, Dale Davis will do. What 96 FMVP votes did Kukoc get?

FOH with this bullshit. This is where you need to take your own advice of stopping with the nonsense.

Actually yes. Kukoc was A LOT more crucial than Rodman.

You throw words like all defense and rebounds. It's like saying Raja Bell is absolutely crucial because he's 1st all defense level and shoot 3s so well.

[L.Kizzle]

Good point. Ron Harper is a good example but another example is Glen Rice. Rice didn't fit well with the triangle offense and didn't like it either. Rodman adapted well, probably because he wasn't a scorer, but also because he was a good passer, something that gets left out of the conversation a lot.

Rodman won DPOY in 1990 and 1991. His contributions are understated when it comes to those late 80s and early 90s Bad Boyz Pistons teams. Look at the following:

DET w/Rodman '93: 36-26 (48 win pace)
DET w/o Rodman '93: 4-16 (17 win pace)

Rodman leaves after '93 and there are some shakeups, but Detroit wins just 20 games. He joins SAS and they go from being a 49 win team to a 55 win team, and then the following season 62 wins. He was a locker room problem but we can't ignore SAS play with him.

But here's the interesting thing about '95. Rodman played just 49 games:

'95 SAS w/Rodman: 40-9 (67 win pace)
'95 SAS w/o Rodman: 22-11 (52 win pace)

The discrepancy is a little skewed because the following season, SAS went on to win 59 games. But I think a lot of that had to do with Sean Elliott's elevated play. Point is, Rodman was an obvious ceiling raiser.

'96 CHI w/Rodman: 57-7 (73 win pace)
'96 CHI w/o Rodman: 15-3 (68 win pace)

The regular season numbers don't show it as much but Rodman's play in the playoffs I think summed it up well.

'97 CHI w/Rodman: 48-7 (72 win pace)
'97 CHI w/o Rodman: 21-6 (64 win pace)

Then in '99 he joins the Lakers:

'99 LAL w/Rodman 17-6 (61 win pace)
'99 LAL w/o Rodman: 14-13 (42 win pace)

There's just so much evidence of Rodman's contributions. As a third best player, it's really hard to think of anyone else I'd rather have in all of league history, and that includes Elgin, Manu, Klay, Ray, Grant, etc.

Rodman wasn't the only one left. Did you forget Isiah Thomas injury or Mark Aguirre retiring. Bill Laimbeer was done. Joe D, Zeke and Laimbeer were the only holdover from the championship teams.

[j3lademaster]

I'm taking Rodman as a third best player over all of those guys, especially if you have the scoring you need from a 1-2 punch like Steph/KD, Kobe/Shaq, MJ/Scottie, West/Wilt, Bird/McHale, Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Wade, LeBron/Kyrie, LeBron/AD, Tatum/Brown, etc.

You’d take Rodman over Klay? In this day and age?

[Phoenix]

Actually yes. Kukoc was A LOT more crucial than Rodman.

You throw words like all defense and rebounds. It's like saying Raja Bell is absolutely crucial because he's 1st all defense level and shoot 3s so well.

Ah so all of a defense being a first team all-defender and leading the league in rebounding, literally setting the record for offensive rebounds in the finals are minor contributions. You throw around words like he was 'ALOT more crucial' with no context behind your vacuous statements whatsoever. FOH with this trolling garbage.

[Phoenix]

Norcaliblunt continuing to prove he's dumb as a rock. Richard Dumas lmao

Don't forget Iamgine following on with some dumb analogy about Raja Bell. Apparently that's the level of importance Rodman had on those teams. I'm just assuming at this point its trolling.

[iamgine]

Don't forget Iamgine following on with some dumb analogy about Raja Bell. Apparently that's the level of importance Rodman had on those teams. I'm just assuming at this point its trolling.

That's about Rodman's level of importance. People just exaggerated Rodman for some reason.