Goat debate

[72-10]

Yeah, it's not the best example. Elgin Baylor or Dr. J would be better to use. If we had a super Dr stan who always came up with arguments for how Erving was better than Lebron, that would be humorous.

Someone once did use Bernard King in an argument with me about how the GOAT is totally subjective, which I disagreed with. There's no argument for King over Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, etc. But they thought there was.

As far as King's 84-85 season is concerned, he did lead the league in scoring average (though Jordan led in points scored and was a better all-around player, and of course Bird was the best player in the league at the time), but there's not much that is statistically outstanding about his season outside of the 60 point game at Madison Square Garden, where he scored an MSG record 40 points in the first half. The 60 and the first half points were both stadium record, but I think Kobe broke it in February 2009 IIRC.

[FKAri]

There's certainly ppl on here who know more about Bernard King than myself, but the reason he's probably not brought up more is that he was a bit more one-dimensional than most of the atg most prolific scorers, though his boards were there sometimes, I think he tended to drive the paint a lot, and his defense was lacking.

Bernard King didn't have a lot of moves but the ones he did have were deadly. Dude's gotten so underrated now.

[72-10]

Bernard King didn't have a lot of moves but the ones he did have were deadly. Dude's gotten so underrated now.

Every time he's discussed they always point out his lack of defense as a main reason why he didn't get in earlier. He toasted the Pistons in the 84 playoffs, though.

[nayte]

It would be even more amazing if it's some player nobody ever talks about like Bernard King.

OK I'm setting you that challenge. Let's see what u can come up with

[3ball]

.
Accomplishments that only MJ has


- only player with 4+ fmvp (he has 6)
- only player at 30/5/5 for regular season... and playoffs... and Finals
- a record 10 scoring titles and all-time leader in PPG by wide margin [COLOR="DarkRed"](best raw stats)[/COLOR]
- only player that is top 2 in career PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48 for regular season and playoffs [COLOR="DarkRed"](best advanced stats)[/COLOR]
- most seasons with 1st team all-nba and 1st team all-defense (9) and most consecutive (9) [COLOR="DarkRed"](most dominant)[/COLOR]
- #1 all-time championship frequency since the 3-point line began - 6 in 15 yrs or 40% [COLOR="DarkRed"](best team stats)[/COLOR]
- only MVP to win 70+ and the championship [COLOR="DarkRed"](top individual and team accomplishment)[/COLOR]
- only all-time great that was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series, and MJ led team by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over 2nd option [COLOR="DarkRed"](biggest burden/defensive attention)[/COLOR]
- only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with only 1 all-star teammate [COLOR="DarkRed"](won with the least)[/COLOR], except Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem (when MJ was out of league)
- only top 10 player to never lose as the 1 or 2 seed [COLOR="DarkRed"](most unbeatable player)[/COLOR].. i.e. kareem lost 9 times, magic/lebron/bird 6 each; MJ was 6-0
- only player to win scoring title & dpoy in same season (88')
- only player to win MVP and dpoy in same season (88')
- only perimeter player to win scoring title and title in same season (6 times)
- only player to sweep all 3 MVP's, scoring title, 1st team all-D and ring in same season (96' and 98')
- Best winning stats ever - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO (27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO)
- Best losing stats ever - 44 ppg against champion 86' celtics and their #1 defense, and 37/7/7 in 90' PO
.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

.
Accomplishments that only MJ has


- only player with 4+ fmvp (he has 6)
- only player at 30/5/5 for regular season... and playoffs... and Finals
- a record 10 scoring titles and all-time leader in PPG by wide margin [COLOR=DarkRed](best raw stats)[/COLOR]
- only player that is top 2 in career PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48 for regular season and playoffs [COLOR=DarkRed](best advanced stats)[/COLOR]
- most seasons with 1st team all-nba and 1st team all-defense (9), and most consecutive (9) [COLOR=DarkRed](most dominant)[/COLOR]
- #1 all-time championship frequency since the 3-point line began - 6 in 15 yrs or 40% [COLOR=DarkRed](best team stats)[/COLOR]
- only MVP to win 70+ and the championship [COLOR=DarkRed](top individual and team accomplishment)[/COLOR]
- only all-time great that was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series, and MJ led team by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over 2nd option [COLOR=DarkRed](biggest burden/defensive attention)[/COLOR]
- only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with only 1 all-star teammate [COLOR=DarkRed](won with the least)[/COLOR], except Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem (when MJ was out of league)
- only top 10 player to never lose as the 1 or 2 seed [COLOR=DarkRed](most unbeatable player)[/COLOR].. i.e. kareem lost 9 times, magic/lebron/bird 6 each; MJ was 6-0
- only player to win scoring title & dpoy in same season (88')
- only player to win MVP and dpoy in same season (88')
- only perimeter player to win scoring title and title in same season (6 times)
- only player to sweep all 3 MVP's, scoring title, 1st team all-D and ring in same season (96' and 98')
- Best winning stats ever - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO (27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO)
- Best losing stats ever - 44 ppg against champion 86' celtics and their #1 defense, and 37/7/7 in 90' PO
.

All of this is true, but this debate is meaningless.
GOAT = Team accomplishments + individual stats - bad losses / missed playoffs during prime.
That's how I look at it anyway.


That's why I have KAJ at #2 - 4 finals losses including the 83' sweep by Phila, missing the playoffs in the 70's during his peak twice. Plus "old man" rings as the 4th best player (87/88) - only 3 FMVPs.


Lebron = great stats, great player. Too many shrinking violet moments. 2007 awful finals numbers, 2010 quit, 2011 huge meltdown, 2014 air conditioner / geriatric Spurs team beating them, 2015 Game 4-6 chokejob, 2017-2018 only winning 1 finals game in 9 tries, and now the 2019 first year in the west = no playoff push.


It's over folks, and really ended after 2011.

[Soundwave]

When there is a player better than Jordan, you will know it because it will be obvious. He will win 6 or more titles as the no.1 option.

You won't have to do all the stupid mental gymnastics you have to do to make LeBron it.

If your guy is the goat he doesn't need you to build a case for him, it's self evident to everyone by what he does on the court. Period.

Stop trying so damn hard.

[nayte]

When there is a player better than Jordan, you will know it because it will be obvious. He will win 6 or more titles as the no.1 option.

You won't have to do all the stupid mental gymnastics you have to do to make LeBron it.

If your guy is the goat he doesn't need you to build a case for him, it's self evident to everyone by what he does on the court. Period.

Stop trying so damn hard.

Nice take. I like it. Except the 6 rings part. I seem to remember Jordan being considered goat after 3 rings. So to me that doesn't play a big part

[gengiskhan]

Top 5 GOATs
--------------
1. MJ: Transcended the game from SG forever. Much bigger than the sport itself. Ali, Maradona. Cultural Icon.
2. Kareem: Revolutionized the game from C position. invented "skyhook". the most unstoppable, undefendable shot in Bball history at that height.
3. Wilt: Statistically, the Dominant player ever and greatest athlete ever. Revolutionized the sport.
4. Magic: Revolutionized the game at PG position. controlled every aspect of the game without scoring a point.
5. Bird: Revolutionized the game at SF position. Never needed the ball in his hand. But controlled the whole game. Maybe the best player to ever play the game.

These 5 are never changing in my book.