Tmac: 'Replace me with Kobe and I'm with Shaq, I don't win a championship?'

[Phoenix]

I'm surprised this soundbite ( starts at 4:52) didn't get any traction here. It's not exactly new ground but retreading well-worn talking arguments is an ISH past-time, so how are we feeling about this one?

This was of course a common argument years ago that between 2000-2002 you could have replaced Kobe with a Tmac/Vince/A.I and the Lakers would have still won a few of those chips.

[SouBeachTalents]

I’d prob rather have peak Shaq than Mike Miller, or whoever the fvck his best teammate was in Orlando

[Phoenix]

I’d prob rather have peak Shaq than Mike Miller, or whoever the fvck his best teammate was in Orlando

Depending on the year, it was either Miller or Darrell Armstrong.



That said, I think this conversation comes down to which version of Tmac and which year. 2000 Kobe wasn't quite there yet, so at the very least I think you could have replaced 2001-2003 Tmac there, especially 2003. 2001 Kobe took it up a notch over his 2000 self, but I think 2003 Tmac could have replaced him. The difference would mainly be the level of playoff domination, Shaq/Tmac aren't going 15-1 in the playoffs and sweeping the Spurs with 20-30 point blow-outs. The big thing people will often point to is, outside of hard to define things like 'intangibles' is defense, but they tend to forget that Tmac was a defensive-oriented player when he came into the league and that side of his game dropped off when he took on more offensive responsibilities in Orlando( which frankly, the same thing happened with Kobe because he was a better defender in 2000 and 2001 with Shaq holding down the middle than in 2006 when he was completely carrying the offense and had to pick his spots on defense). A similar thing happened with Kawhi, his offensive and defensive peak didn't occur in the same seasons. Now to be clear, none of this is to say that TMac= Kobe overall or anything like that, but that debate in the early 2000s did exist for a reason.

[tpols]

It would be disappointing if they didn't win 1 or 2 rings. They'd definitely win one at least. Even if they lost earlier 2003 would be ripe.

[ShawkFactory]

I think 2000 and 2001 they could have/should have won with TMac. Probably not in 2002, don't think they win that Kings series, but potentially in 2003.

[LAL]

Wonder how many rings would he have won if he replaced lebum those 4y with the heatles, 2/4?

Wonder how many Kobe would've with won Yao Ming and that supporting cast in Houston?

How many would KD win on the cavs from 15 to 18?

What if Jordan played for Boston from 86 to 91? Or Barkley?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Almost everyone that watched ball through the '00s thinks McGrady could have won with Shaq but I doubt this convo helps him because no one's mind is going to change. Who is just now discovering that McGrady was a great player or that Shaq was one of the two (along with Duncan) dominant forces of the era? Instead there will be some people that read his comments and take it as disrespect to Kobe. I don't take it that way myself but it has/will happen.

[Gudo]

Even if he gets one, which he likely will, I don't know that that will define his greatness exactly. Anchoring a ring with Shaq will not be enough, he has to be able to show his greatness in that organization for a long time.

[John8204]

It really depends on if it's the season when Shaq was motivated or when Shaq was coasting

[GOBB]

This was literally the argument back then. Tmac must have a bad memory. Then again he probably does when he said he cooked Kmart everytime he saw him. Dropping 40 40 30 etc. And it never happened. What a hot take there Tmac. Guess what? Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Ray Allen were also SGs that if you took Kobe off and replace him with them? They would win a ring.

Your consistently didn’t get out the first rd tho. Then strangely enough you get hurt in Houston and that team makes it past first rd. Lol What’s his point exactly? You didn’t win but we should consider you a champion? Not how that works bud.

[GOBB]

Even if he gets one, which he likely will, I don't know that that will define his greatness exactly. Anchoring a ring with Shaq will not be enough, he has to be able to show his greatness in that organization for a long time.

Which is what Kobe faced until he got Shaq up outta there to show he could win without him. So not quite sure what Tmac is saying here. Plenty of great players. Hall of Fame players that didn’t win a ring. No one ever said he wasn’t a great player. But when you are compared to other greats like MJ, Kobe, Wade? Championships are apart of it and the role you played in winning them.

[E_Stamkos]

Yes Tracey, you would have won a ring with Shaq. There were several others who arguably would have won as said tandem. The more salient question is, whether you would have won in 2008-2010?

[RogueBorg]

Wonder how many Kobe would've with won Yao Ming and that supporting cast in Houston?

McGrady couldn't get out of the 1st round with that 55-win Houston team. He's a poor man's George Gervin at best. No defensive teams, none, zilch. So no T-Mac, you wouldn't have won with Shaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

McGrady couldn't get out of the 1st round with that 55-win Houston team. He's a poor man's George Gervin at best. No defensive teams, none, zilch. So no T-Mac, you wouldn't have won with Shaq.

You clearly don't know anything about McGrady. He was actually a good defender in Toronto, before having to dial back his defensive effort in Orlando carrying the offense on a trash team. He even did a great job defending Dirk in one of their playoff series in Houston. Marion & Sheed never made All-Defense either, that doesn't automatically mean they weren't very good defenders.

Believing peak Orlando McGrady isn't winning even one title with peak Shaq is frankly an atrocious take. The difference between Kobe & McGrady during that timeframe was virtually non-existent, even if you felt Kobe was better, the difference isn't enough to cause a 3-0 ring disparity next to a player like Shaq.

[j3lademaster]

I remember Kobe being very comparable to AI and Tmac in the early 2000’s. It wasn’t until his insane 2006 stint where he started to leave them in the dust, and when he won 2 with Pau he cemented that.