Tmac: 'Replace me with Kobe and I'm with Shaq, I don't win a championship?'

[Phoenix]

Of course. There's definitely a lot more to it than TMac's original hypothetical. Which was just wanting to replace Kobe with his absolute BEST years lol. Voila...championship. I personally like the idea of TMac beginning his career in LA and working his way up. You give everything Kobe had to work with to him. Coaching staff, management, players etc. Its more fair and simple enough to debate.

Everything here is speculative, but I'd imagine Phil pushing TMac to maximize his talent, getting the best out of him defensively. Shaq credits Phil with his 2000 MVP season, because it was Phil who challenged him to be ALL-NBA on that end. Would be interesting to see what that duo could accomplish. TMac's expectations would absolutely rise though, and there's a chance he doesn't win anything. So one also has to wonder if he simply benefits just from this hypothetical.

I think it was Meticode a few pages back who said Phil was specifically brought in to soothe Shaq and Kobe's egos. If that's the case, then it does begs the question of whether he ends up the coach. And then that has a cascading effect of someone like Ron Harper being brought in with his championship knowledge and experience with the Triangle. I'm inclined to think the roster doesn't quite end up the same so it's really tough to speculate as to how it all comes together. You basically have to start with the premise that Shaq and Tmac as a duo are good enough to build a title team around( not in terms of basketball ability, moreso the intangibles) along with the right coaching and roster composition. I mean,pretty much common logic for any championship team when it's all said and done.

You keep saying the 2000s, but you should narrow it down like you did with with MJ and Drexler. The conversation between Kobe and TMac lasted for 3 years tops. If even that. From my vantage point, the debate only really got serious from 2002-2003. I don't know many people who thought TMac was better or equal to Kobe in 2005.

2005 could have been a toss-up as well, because that was the first year post-Shaq and the Lakers missed the playoffs. Kobe played 66 games ( as did Lamar Odom, which pretty much killed their playoff chances) and averaged 28/6/6 on 43%. By comparison, Tmac was 26/6/6 on 43% and went out in the first round. Both 3rd team selections....not a ton of individual separation there. I think it was mostly 2006 where that comparison definitively died. As an aside, I'd have liked to have seen a healthy Tmac in 2006 after the perimeter rule changes. Everyone remembers Kobe going off for 35ppg and the 81 game, but forget Iverson himself averaged 33. You'd have to imagine Tmac would have been right in that mix at 26-27 years old if his body hadn't failed him.

That's fair, but honestly who was really debating Kobe and TMac in 2000 and 2001? lol. I definitely heard the AI vs Kobe talks, but Mcgrady didn't really get that kind of love until 2002ish. And the debate peaked in 2003.

Vince and Kobe was a conversation too between like 2000 and 2001, before VC started having knee issues and then played his way out of Toronto. Iverson definitely, he was winning MVP and scoring titles while Kobe was winning his 2nd chip. Tmac and Kobe was more like 2002 to 2004, 2005 it died down a bit but it was still a thing, 2006 it was over. One of the best things you can say about Kobe is he outlasted his contemporaries.

[red1]

tmac was unguardable but he was fragile as fuck


kobe was an ironman



cant really compare the two. kobe >>> mcgrady for that one reason alone

[ArbitraryWater]

tmac was unguardable but he was fragile as fuck


kobe was an ironman



cant really compare the two. kobe >>> mcgrady for that one reason alone

this is the kind of in depth analysis I come to ISH for

[Tavr]

I think it was Meticode a few pages back who said Phil was specifically brought in to soothe Shaq and Kobe's egos. If that's the case, then it does begs the question of whether he ends up the coach. And then that has a cascading effect of someone like Ron Harper being brought in with his championship knowledge and experience with the Triangle. I'm inclined to think the roster doesn't quite end up the same so it's really tough to speculate as to how it all comes together. You basically have to start with the premise that Shaq and Tmac as a duo are good enough to build a title team around( not in terms of basketball ability, moreso the intangibles) along with the right coaching and roster composition. I mean,pretty much common logic for any championship team when it's all said and done.

Yup, if we go this route there are many uncertainties. Its doubtful Phil comes out of retirement, because Mcgrady was a nonchalant type of dude and unlike Kobe nowhere near as stubborn. Shaq and him assumingly get along with one other, playing more seasons together. Not having Phil or an "equal" roster though is why I like the plug and play method. Where TMac mirrors Kobe's career in LA. Less question marks and more of a direct comparison, but to each their own.

2005 could have been a toss-up as well, because that was the first year post-Shaq and the Lakers missed the playoffs. Kobe played 66 games ( as did Lamar Odom, which pretty much killed their playoff chances) and averaged 28/6/6 on 43%. By comparison, Tmac was 26/6/6 on 43% and went out in the first round. Both 3rd team selections....not a ton of individual separation there. I think it was mostly 2006 where that comparison definitively died. As an aside, I'd have liked to have seen a healthy Tmac in 2006 after the perimeter rule changes. Everyone remembers Kobe going off for 35ppg and the 81 game, but forget Iverson himself averaged 33. You'd have to imagine Tmac would have been right in that mix at 26-27 years old if his body hadn't failed him.

I thought the comparison was buried when Kobe went berserk during their H2H in 2004. Kobe was playing with a sprained shoulder (remember those games he wore that compression sleeve?) and wasn't having a particularly good game thru 3 quarters. In that 4th quarter though dude went postal and scored a blistering 24 points with clutch defensive stops (one was a nasty weakside block on TMac), leading the Lakers to a comeback win. While TMac had a good game in his own right what Kobe did here was pretty spectacular. And imo really spotlighted the difference between the two.

Classic game, I'm sure you remember it:


When I mentioned 2005, the year 2005 was in my head moreso than the ACTUAL season. I'm thinking of that October 2005 opener Kobe had in Denver, which ended with a game-winner. The 04-05 season you could probably argue was a toss up. Statistically anyway. I'd go back to defense though and like you mentioned, Kobe's injuries kind of derailed him. I believe Rudy Tomtonavic was LA's coach to begin that season, but he abruptly retired midway because of a health issue. Rough season all-around. Kobe was very fortunate Phil returned to the fold just a year later.

Vince and Kobe was a conversation too between like 2000 and 2001, before VC started having knee issues and then played his way out of Toronto. Iverson definitely, he was winning MVP and scoring titles while Kobe was winning his 2nd chip. Tmac and Kobe was more like 2002 to 2004, 2005 it died down a bit but it was still a thing, 2006 it was over. One of the best things you can say about Kobe is he outlasted his contemporaries.

Good call. Vince was 100% in that conversation.