MJ says "I would never would've retired in 93", so he didn't NEED to retire

[guy]

Exactly, the reason 6 rings was such a big deal when it happened is becauee it was one more than Magic had. Mj cared about his scoring titles in comparison to Wilt's. He did t care about Kareem's record because nobody thought it was possible to replicate it. If Mj was the all time leading scorer it would be a big part of the taglines we use when we run down his accomplishments. It just happens to be one of the few major things he couldn't pull off, and thats ok. He's still goat, 1a-1b or #2 for me depending on criteria.

I could be wrong but I’ve never heard him reference Wilt when it came to him wanting to win scoring titles. In fact, he retired the first time with 7, tied with Wilt. That kind of proves the point that he didn’t care about records whether it was far out of reach or not cause he could’ve easily have gotten to 8 the very next year and was just more concerned about how he measured against his peers.

And 6 rings and surpassing Magic in rings was not a big deal. That was not a narrative throughout the year or anything like that. Sure it was pointed out once it happened, but there wasn’t really a debate between the two regardless of rings.

[ShawkFactory]

What do you mean he didn't NEED to retire??

You've already set the precent that because something happened in a certain way means that it NEEDED to. That was you.

[Da_Realist]

I could be wrong but I’ve never heard him reference Wilt when it came to him wanting to win scoring titles. In fact, he retired the first time with 7, tied with Wilt. That kind of proves the point that he didn’t care about records whether it was far out of reach or not cause he could’ve easily have gotten to 8 the very next year and was just more concerned about how he measured against his peers.

And 6 rings and surpassing Magic in rings was not a big deal. That was not a narrative throughout the year or anything like that. Sure it was pointed out once it happened, but there wasn’t really a debate between the two regardless of rings.

Great points about Wilt and Magic. MJ could have easily won 8 straight scoring titles but retired instead. And as for the rings... he just wanted to carve out his own lane. He wasn't focused on Magic's 5 titles like everyone today is focused on MJ's 6. He wanted to do something unique that neither Magic or Bird did (threepeat). When he set himself apart, he retired. His retirement was one part grief over his father and one part grief over losing his measuring sticks (Bird and Magic). He was not concerned about career numbers.

After a year and a half of playing baseball, MJ felt motivation again when he saw new stars take over the league so he came back to prove he could win against them too. But he wasn't specifically targeting Magic's rings to overcome.

[Phoenix]

This may be a deep cut, and I'm gonna have hell trying to even find out if it exists anywhere, but I remember a 60 minutes special on Jordan in the early 90s, I want to say this was after the first title, where he kind of hinted that he wasn't going to stick around for much longer. Does anyone here remember that? But beyond that, I do specifically recall this interview bit in 'Michael Jordan Jordan Above and beyond' at the 8:37 mark:



So taking his comments at face value here, after 7 scoring titles, a threepeat and 3 of the prior 5 MVPs, it didn't seem as though he was necessarily interested in breaking any established markers, Kareems scoring record or MVP count, Russells 11 titles which would be impossible to chase. The conversations were different back then because I don't recall anyone saying he had to pass Magic's 5 rings, or pass Kareem in scoring in order to be considered the GOAT. By 93 it was kind of already viewed that this was largely the case at that point based on his body of work and just how he played in general.

Going for a 4th straight or another MVP or more counting numbers didn't seem to be motivating factors coming off the 93 season. But if something in any way sparked a desire to come back in 94, his fathers death took that away. I mean, things just kind of happened the way it did at that point in time. He was also being killed in the media that year with all the gambling side stories, nights in Atlantic City right before a playoff game against the Knicks, stuff like that. Seemed like a number of things that led to that choice to retire in 93. I figured without the tragic father murder, coming back for a 4th title would have been enough of a motivating factor (but I won't claim to be in his head knowing what drove him). That 94 team with a 31 year old MJ, 28 year old Pippen/Grant, Kukoc coming onboard and other roster upgrades would have been special, very likely the best version of that Bulls dynasty if it had played out that way. But generally speaking, that way that year played out leading through the summer, as shocked as we all were that MJ walked away at that point, being in the moment it also made sense. Talking about it now in hindsight doesn't really capture what was happening in real-time.

[Hey Yo]

Great points about Wilt and Magic. MJ could have easily won 8 straight scoring titles but retired instead. And as for the rings... he just wanted to carve out his own lane. He wasn't focused on Magic's 5 titles like everyone today is focused on MJ's 6. He wanted to do something unique that neither Magic or Bird did (threepeat). When he set himself apart, he retired. His retirement was one part grief over his father and one part grief over losing his measuring sticks (Bird and Magic). He was not concerned about career numbers.

After a year and a half of playing baseball, MJ felt motivation again when he saw new stars take over the league so he came back to prove he could win against them too. But he wasn't specifically targeting Magic's rings to overcome.

More like the MLB was going on strike and MJ was still under his 8yr Bulls deal so Reinsdorf wasn't going to let him do nothing and still collect pay checks. He basically had no choice but to comeback to the Bulls if he wanted paid and we both know Mike liked having gambling money.

[sdot_thadon]

You can stop with the petty insults. We know you're bitter. Anyway, you can leave 1989 now with the triple doubles. Even that was because he was trying to prove he was an all around player, not accumulate career numbers...or he would have kept going the rest of his career.

And yes, he wanted to win the scoring title. To prove he could lead the league in scoring while winning. To prove he was good enough to do it, and he was, doing it 6 times.

But that's still not the same as being focused on accumulating career numbers. If he was hyper focused on it, he would have never retired, which is what he said.

Petty insults? Boy you got some thin skin to be posting here then lol. So what youre telling me is its ok to want to accumulate per game numbers because you supposedly know his reasons, but its bad to want to accumulate career numbers? Wtf make it make sense. When you gotta start jumping through hoops to avoid the truth youre probably better off with just the truth bro.

[Full Court]

So taking his comments at face value here, after 7 scoring titles, a threepeat and 3 of the prior 5 MVPs, it didn't seem as though he was necessarily interested in breaking any established markers, Kareems scoring record or MVP count, Russells 11 titles which would be impossible to chase. The conversations were different back then because I don't recall anyone saying he had to pass Magic's 5 rings, or pass Kareem in scoring in order to be considered the GOAT. By 93 it was kind of already viewed that this was largely the case at that point based on his body of work and just how he played in general.

Nobody ever thought total career points meant anything as far as the GOAT conversation goes. It wasn't until it started looking like Lebron was going to break Kareem's record that all of a sudden Bronie fluffers started trying to push this narrative that total points was some huge GOAT benchmark. They really had no choice though, since Lebron had already fallen woefully short in the criteria that actually mattered.

[Da_Realist]

Petty insults? Boy you got some thin skin to be posting here then lol. So what youre telling me is its ok to want to accumulate per game numbers because you supposedly know his reasons, but its bad to want to accumulate career numbers? Wtf make it make sense. When you gotta start jumping through hoops to avoid the truth youre probably better off with just the truth bro.

Career numbers mean nothing. They're without context. You can score 30 million points but never actually dominate. Just play a long time. Look at LeBron. Career leader in points but led the league in scoring only once. No one thinks Mark Jackson is a better floor general than Magic Johnson but he has more career assists. Because he played longer. Career numbers don't indicate dominance. Per-game numbers is much indicative of how good a guy is for a season.

That's why guys, until recently, were more interested in their per-game numbers than career totals. Every award is based on what a guy does for season, not a career.

[guy]

More like the MLB was going on strike and MJ was still under his 8yr Bulls deal so Reinsdorf wasn't going to let him do nothing and still collect pay checks. He basically had no choice but to comeback to the Bulls if he wanted paid and we both know Mike liked having gambling money.

You really think the $4M he was getting paid in 96 was what he came back for?

[sdot_thadon]

I could be wrong but I’ve never heard him reference Wilt when it came to him wanting to win scoring titles. In fact, he retired the first time with 7, tied with Wilt. That kind of proves the point that he didn’t care about records whether it was far out of reach or not cause he could’ve easily have gotten to 8 the very next year and was just more concerned about how he measured against his peers.

And 6 rings and surpassing Magic in rings was not a big deal. That was not a narrative throughout the year or anything like that. Sure it was pointed out once it happened, but there wasn’t really a debate between the two regardless of rings.

Yeah you could be wrong for sure, he and Wilt went back an forth in the media. And at the 50th anniversary at all star weekend they sat in a corner arguing pretty hard about who was the goat. Doesn't really sound like a guy who didn't care to me. Wilt was the guy any scorer wanted to be, to have anything over him asna scorer is a huge flex. They gave MJ a trophy when he made 30k points, but yeah career stats arent a big deal. And about Magic im not talking about the media dialog im talking about the one Magic and Mj had between the 2 of them. The ive got t and you got less trash talk. That's the earliest instance of rangz talk I can recall. Oh and Wilt saying Mjs 4 dont mean much becuase he knows a guy with 11.

[sdot_thadon]

Career numbers mean nothing. They're without context. You can score 30 million points but never actually dominate. Just play a long time. Look at LeBron. Career leader in points but led the league in scoring only once. No one thinks Mark Jackson is a better floor general than Magic Johnson but he has more career assists. Because he played longer. Career numbers don't indicate dominance. Per-game numbers is much indicative of how good a guy is for a season.

That's why guys, until recently, were more interested in their per-game numbers than career totals. Every award is based on what a guy does for season, not a career.

If career numbers mean(t) nothing, explain to me why Mj was given a trophy for accumulating 30k points? Kinda weird for something irrelevant dont ya think? You really believe Mark Jackson is a decent comparison to what Lebron has done? Lebrons career numbers didn't just come because he played long, thats pretty silly. He made those numbers because he dominated for more years than anyone else. Whether or not you think he outplayed Mj, he played at a comparable level for way longer. Thats the big deal.

[Full Court]

If career numbers mean(t) nothing, explain to me why Mj was given a trophy for accumulating 30k points? Kinda weird for something irrelevant dont ya think? You really believe Mark Jackson is a decent comparison to what Lebron has done? Lebrons career numbers didn't just come because he played long, thats pretty silly. He made those numbers because he dominated for more years than anyone else. Whether or not you think he outplayed Mj, he played at a comparable level for way longer. Thats the big deal.

Jordan had 10 scoring titles to Lebron's 1. THAT's dominance. The other stat is longevity. Jordan's dominance is on a whole other level from LeShrivel's.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan had 10 scoring titles to Lebron's 1. THAT's dominance. The other stat is longevity. Jordan's dominance is on a whole other level from LeShrivel's.

Who made scoring titles the only measure of dominance? Whenever you try to play the weak longevity card youre sonning yourself. If we're talking vince carter, kevin willis type of longevity then youve got a point, most guys who have longevity watch it play out as a role player not a star, and certainly not as the face of the league. In that sense Lebron's longevity is one of a kind, hes given elite longevity thats the difference and why your statement doesn't move the needle.

[Full Court]

Who made scoring titles the only measure of dominance? Whenever you try to play the weak longevity card youre sonning yourself. If we're talking vince carter, kevin willis type of longevity then youve got a point, most guys who have longevity watch it play out as a role player not a star, and certainly not as the face of the league. In that sense Lebron's longevity is one of a kind, hes given elite longevity thats the difference and why your statement doesn't move the needle.

Hmmmm. How about we make winning the measure of dominance then. Jordan three-peated TWICE. Remind me, how many times did LeShrivel three-peat?

Yep, you've got nothing. "Bu-bu-bu-but total points!!!"

[sdot_thadon]

Hmmmm. How about we make winning the measure of dominance then. Jordan three-peated TWICE. Remind me, how many times did LeShrivel three-peat?

Yep, you've got nothing. "Bu-bu-bu-but total points!!!"

Who made 3peats the measure of dominance when there's a guy with an 8peat?