MJ says "I would never would've retired in 93", so he didn't NEED to retire

[Full Court]

Who made 3peats the measure of dominance when there's a guy with an 8peat?

That's exactly why Bill Russell is ranked higher than Lebron.

Again, you've got nothing.

[Da_Realist]

If career numbers mean(t) nothing, explain to me why Mj was given a trophy for accumulating 30k points? Kinda weird for something irrelevant dont ya think? You really believe Mark Jackson is a decent comparison to what Lebron has done? Lebrons career numbers didn't just come because he played long, thats pretty silly. He made those numbers because he dominated for more years than anyone else. Whether or not you think he outplayed Mj, he played at a comparable level for way longer. Thats the big deal.

The NBA also hands out sportsmanship awards no one cares about. Actually, I didn't even realize he got a 30K trophy and I doubt most people who don't dig for it remembers it either. No one ever talks about it because it doesn't matter. Great example.

[Full Court]

The NBA also hands out sportsmanship awards no one cares about. Actually, I didn't even realize he got a 30K trophy and I doubt most people who don't dig for it remembers it either. No one ever talks about it because it doesn't matter. Great example.

Exactly. 30k was a mildly interesting stat that nobody really cared about. But when Lebron hit 40k, since that's all they had left to desperately cling to, the Bronie fluffers all started soiling their panties. It really was a bizarre psychological phenomenon, albeit predictable if you understand how their little brains work.

[Da_Realist]

Who made 3peats the measure of dominance when there's a guy with an 8peat?

It is a measure of dominance precisely because it has so rarely been done since the 60's, when the NBA was way different. Even if we accept the 8-peat as the highest accomplishment, you still need to get a three-peat first.

Greats raise the stakes. For the longest time after the NBA and ABA merged then expanded to what it looks like now, good teams would win one and fall back. Great teams would win one here and one there. All time greats would win one here, there and there. But then Magic's Lakers raised the stakes. They repeated. Something not done since the 60's. Isiah's Pistons matched it. MJ's Bulls raised the stakes again by winning three in a row. Then did it again. Shaq and Kobe's Lakers matched it. So now that's the standard for the modern era. When a team wins four straight, that will be the new standard of the highest excellence in the modern era until it is surpassed.

[1987_Lakers]

Exactly. 30k was a mildly interesting stat that nobody really cared about.

This isn't the case at all. 30k points is looked at as the 3k career hits in baseball. You are just making up shit now. Whenever a player has hit 30k career points, a big deal was made out of it.

And Russell is the GOAT if 3peats are the measure of dominance.

[sdot_thadon]

The NBA also hands out sportsmanship awards no one cares about. Actually, I didn't even realize he got a 30K trophy and I doubt most people who don't dig for it remembers it either. No one ever talks about it because it doesn't matter. Great example.

I guess this is the part where you get old enough to see shit twisted into weird territory. The 20k club had always been a notable milestone for star players and the 30k club was for the upper echelon. Its so damn strange being told now that it supposedly didn't mean much then , yet a scoring title is the end, all be all accolade to be listed in the same breath as mvps and finals mvps.......not fishy at all

It is a measure of dominance precisely because it has so rarely been done since the 60's, when the NBA was way different. Even if we accept the 8-peat as the highest accomplishment, you still need to get a three-peat first.

Greats raise the stakes. For the longest time after the NBA and ABA merged then expanded to what it looks like now, good teams would win one and fall back. Great teams would win one here and one there. All time greats would win one here, there and there. But then Magic's Lakers raised the stakes. They repeated. Something not done since the 60's. Isiah's Pistons matched it. MJ's Bulls raised the stakes again by winning three in a row. Then did it again. Shaq and Kobe's Lakers matched it. So now that's the standard for the modern era. When a team wins four straight, that will be the new standard of the highest excellence in the modern era until it is surpassed.

Bro, i love these debates for a completely different reason than when I used to have my nose in record books looking at wilts numbers. I get to see all the hypocrisy yall use in these arguments. If an 8 peat existed, magic , Mj, etc didn't raise any effing stakes lol. They didn't 8peat. You say the 60s was way different, time to wake up and smell the coffee. The "modern" NBA isnt the 90s anymore, that was 30 plus years ago. We're further from the 90s than the 90s were from the 60s. And yes tbe game is way different now too, we compare and complain daily about how it used to be. I loved the 90s, hell ive loved every NBA era ive got to see live in its own way, but the 60s cant be the stone age anymore when we're 30 plus years from the 90s. Time to start discussing reality instead of romanticizing your childhood era.

[Da_Realist]

I guess this is the part where you get old enough to see shit twisted into weird territory. The 20k club had always been a notable milestone for star players and the 30k club was for the upper echelon. Its so damn strange being told now that it supposedly didn't mean much then , yet a scoring title is the end, all be all accolade to be listed in the same breath as mvps and finals mvps.......not fishy at all


Bro, i love these debates for a completely different reason than when I used to have my nose in record books looking at wilts numbers. I get to see all the hypocrisy yall use in these arguments. If an 8 peat existed, magic , Mj, etc didn't raise any effing stakes lol. They didn't 8peat. You say the 60s was way different, time to wake up and smell the coffee. The "modern" NBA isnt the 90s anymore, that was 30 plus years ago. We're further from the 90s than the 90s were from the 60s. And yes tbe game is way different now too, we compare and complain daily about how it used to be. I loved the 90s, hell ive loved every NBA era ive got to see live in its own way, but the 60s cant be the stone age anymore when we're 30 plus years from the 90s. Time to start discussing reality instead of romanticizing your childhood era.

It's a notable milestone on one night when the announcers say something and the crowd claps for a few minutes. That's it.

Sorry bro. No one cares about your hero's 40k stat padded points on 7 different teams. No one cares about whatever plaque he got for it. No one cared about whatever plaque Kareem may or may not have received for his points. No one has ever cared beyond some tepid acknowledgement by the announcers for the night of the game. No one ever brought it up until your hero needed to stuff it down everyone's throats hoping we'd like it. MJ retired in his prime not caring about it. He retired again not caring about it. And retired again. Kobe passed him up but no one cared after two days. Karl Malone passed him up at some point. We don't even know when or what shot did it because no one cared. He's top 5 all time scoring yet no one cares about Karl Malone because no one cares about his total points. No one has ever cared about total points until your hero and his media fanboys needed to use that for his fake GOAT case. Now you're on here pretending everyone gives a damn about it. We don't. And never have.

[guy]

Yeah you could be wrong for sure, he and Wilt went back an forth in the media. And at the 50th anniversary at all star weekend they sat in a corner arguing pretty hard about who was the goat. Doesn't really sound like a guy who didn't care to me. Wilt was the guy any scorer wanted to be, to have anything over him asna scorer is a huge flex. They gave MJ a trophy when he made 30k points, but yeah career stats arent a big deal. And about Magic im not talking about the media dialog im talking about the one Magic and Mj had between the 2 of them. The ive got t and you got less trash talk. That's the earliest instance of rangz talk I can recall. Oh and Wilt saying Mjs 4 dont mean much becuase he knows a guy with 11.

Am I wrong? I was expecting you to actually show me where I was and that Jordan actually cared about that stuff. At the 50th anniversary Jordan already had 8 scoring titles

Harmless trash talk when these guys see each other is not the equivalent of the constant narratives of today.

It’s revisionist history to say that players cared and strived for certain accomplishments which they clearly didn’t and there’s no evidence that they did and that they were talking points at the time. What’s considered important today doesn’t equate to back then.

[Tavr]

Yeah, there's definitely a bit of trolling going on.

I remember Kobe becoming one of the youngest to climb up the all-time points board and then eventually passing guys like Wilt... It definitely was talked about although the discussion and "celebration" were pretty brief. When Kobe led the league in scoring in 2006 and 2007, though, everyone was buzzing. And it was the topic of discussion for YEARS (he was quite literally considered the games best scorer because of that).

Personally? I wont dismiss longevity feats like the all-time points record. Not going to pretend it isn't an accomplishment. But to the degree of what a player produces in real time? THAT YEAR? I mean obviously not, but that's just common sense. Per game metrics give us a clearer picture on how players measure up against their peers.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a notable milestone on one night when the announcers say something and the crowd claps for a few minutes. That's it.

Sorry bro. No one cares about your hero's 40k stat padded points on 7 different teams. No one cares about whatever plaque he got for it. No one cared about whatever plaque Kareem may or may not have received for his points. No one has ever cared beyond some tepid acknowledgement by the announcers for the night of the game. No one ever brought it up until your hero needed to stuff it down everyone's throats hoping we'd like it. MJ retired in his prime not caring about it. He retired again not caring about it. And retired again. Kobe passed him up but no one cared after two days. Karl Malone passed him up at some point. We don't even know when or what shot did it because no one cared. He's top 5 all time scoring yet no one cares about Karl Malone because no one cares about his total points. No one has ever cared about total points until your hero and his media fanboys needed to use that for his fake GOAT case. Now you're on here pretending everyone gives a damn about it. We don't. And never have.

So then tell me what amazing things happen in contrast when someone wins the scoting title? I'll wait this should be good. Milestones have always been notable in any sport, thats why this seems so silly to me. When you have to disregard the accomplishments of others because it wasnt something specific to Jordan, it kinda brings MJ's case into question without saying a word. Also a weird part of this discussion is the examples like Malone to try to downplay Lebrons accolades. Malone never won a thing, so no shit his totals dont put him in a room he doesn't belong in.
When Kobe passed Mike on the all-time scoring list? You bet your ass it was a big deal, these are things that illustrate your caliber as a player if not a specific aspect of basketball. You guys never cared about it before becuase nobody comparable to Mj in your eyes ever reached those plateaus.

[sdot_thadon]

Am I wrong? I was expecting you to actually show me where I was and that Jordan actually cared about that stuff. At the 50th anniversary Jordan already had 8 scoring titles

Harmless trash talk when these guys see each other is not the equivalent of the constant narratives of today.

It’s revisionist history to say that players cared and strived for certain accomplishments which they clearly didn’t and there’s no evidence that they did and that they were talking points at the time. What’s considered important today doesn’t equate to back then.

Theres plenty of anecdotal accounts floating around to tell us he cared about his numbers. I get why you dont want to acknowledge them, but they exist. Guys cared about their numbers all the way back to Wilts era, again there exists accounts from people who lived it. Its fine to have your preference of what's more important but its weird to only downplay the categories that dont support your idol.

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah, there's definitely a bit of trolling going on.

I remember Kobe becoming one of the youngest to climb up the all-time points board and then eventually passing guys like Wilt... It definitely was talked about although the discussion and "celebration" were pretty brief. When Kobe led the league in scoring in 2006 and 2007, though, everyone was buzzing. And it was the topic of discussion for YEARS (he was quite literally considered the games best scorer because of that).

Personally? I wont dismiss longevity feats like the all-time points record. Not going to pretend it isn't an accomplishment. But to the degree of what a player produces in real time? THAT YEAR? I mean obviously not, but that's just common sense. Per game metrics give us a clearer picture on how players measure up against their peers.

I agree there's a bit of trolling going on. Because if scoring titles is the end all be all, then what happens when its time to discuss why James Harden has more than Kobe?

[Tavr]

I agree there's a bit of trolling going on. Because if scoring titles is the end all be all, then what happens when its time to discuss why James Harden has more than Kobe?

A few things

1. Scoring titles are not the "end all be all", at least not for me. I'm talking about what a player does in real time. During that season, and it carrying more weight for people who are watching.

2. If I were comparing James Harden to Kobe then I'd grant James Harden the edge in scoring titles, but would also use context (e.g. the rules being more lax from 2018-2020). Then I'd talk about playoff scoring and what they did in the finals etc.

Point being? I'm initially going to debate things they did on a per game basis. Not their career totals.

[Manny98]

All MJ stans have been reduced to are "would've & could've"

facts are LeBron is and will always be number #1 until the day you die and decades after that

[guy]

Theres plenty of anecdotal accounts floating around to tell us he cared about his numbers. I get why you dont want to acknowledge them, but they exist. Guys cared about their numbers all the way back to Wilts era, again there exists accounts from people who lived it. Its fine to have your preference of what's more important but its weird to only downplay the categories that dont support your idol.

I think we’re talking about 2 different things here and/or you’re changing the argument.

Sure, Jordan cared about triple doubles during 1 season cause he wanted to be known as a complete player like Magic and Bird and then he wanted to win scoring titles - but that was all in the context of how he compared to his PEERS at the time.

It seems like you’re trying to argue that he and the media/fans in general had this focus on him accomplishing these milestones from a historical perspective i.e. more championships, more points, more scoring titles than X, Y, and Z player as they do all the time today. But he didn’t, none of his actions really show that, and maybe more importantly there was no real pressure or expectation from fans/media that he needed to do that for his legacy.