+2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not lebron

[Phoenix]

Again, all those guys are 1st options.. None of them are 2nd options like Klay or Pippen, so I'm fine taking the win on that... Ultimately, you provided 4 examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with losing teams, while it's common for 1st options to get All-NBA with 20-40 win teams.. It's happened dozens of times.

So the point remains that 2nd options like Klay and Pippen need winning spotlight to get All-NBA - they wouldn't get anything if they were barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards... They'd be like any bum 20 ppg scorer that doesn't get no accolades (i.e. Kuzma).

Again, those players were 2nd options the years I mentioned for those all-NBA selections, so I'm fine taking the win as well. Ultimately you've only provided 1 example, Richmond, of first option all-NBA teamers on 20-30 wins teams so you saying there are tons of players and happened 'dozens of times' isn't anything you've substantiated. I spotted you Tmac, because you needed the boost. Love's all-nba on the Wolves in 2012 came during a lockout year so doesn't really count. So your list is only two as of now with 'dozens' or 'tons' of other examples you can't provide despite being asked multiple times, so I win simply by default. It doesn't matter if I had 4 examples, 10 examples, or 1 example, because you said this:

but the reality is that I'm struggling to find any 2nd options that made All-NBA with even like 40 wins

Even with your flaccid attempts to discredit some of my list, 4 is still more than you've provided. Ultimately whats a 'real' 2nd option ain't up to you or what legitimizes someone on the all-NBA team that doesn't adhere to your 'first option' narrative. You can slice it anyway you like, defensive players, 2nd options...it doesn't matter. Guys like Bogut and Drummond were among the scoring leaders on their teams so being a 'defensive' big doesn't disqualify them. And don't' think I didn't notice your sleight of hand not mentioning Sabonis.

Oh by the way, since I showed above that every single member of the 2025 all-NBA team won at least 44 games this year, tomorrow I"m going to start dropping all-NBA teams going back several years. Let's see how 'common' first options getting all-NBA on sub 40 teams really is, per your comments.

[Phoenix]

2024 All NBA teams


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)

2nd Team

Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)

3rd Team

Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)

[ShawkFactory]

2024 All NBA teams


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)

2nd Team

Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)

3rd Team

Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)

That only happened because of the winning spotlight.

And before you try to refute me...a second option CANNOT play the game in such a way, regardless of stats, that makes a team better. They're all garbage dudes getting carried.

[Phoenix]

2023 All-NBA


Giannis Antetokounmpo (58)
Luka Dončić (38) played 66 games
Joel Embiid (54)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (40)
Jayson Tatum (57)

2nd Team

Jaylen Brown (57)
Jimmy Butler (44)
Stephen Curry (44)
Nikola Jokić (53)
Donovan Mitchell (51)

3rd Team

De'Aaron Fox (48)
LeBron James (43)
Damian Lillard (33) played 58 games
Julius Randle (47)
Domantas Sabonis (48)

[Phoenix]

That only happened because of the winning spotlight.

And before you try to refute me...a second option CANNOT play the game in such a way, regardless of stats, that makes a team better. They're all garbage dudes getting carried.

[Phoenix]

2022 All-NBA team


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (51)
Devin Booker (64)
Luka Dončić (52)
Nikola Jokić (48)
Jayson Tatum (51)

2nd Team

Stephen Curry (53)
DeMar DeRozan (46)
Kevin Durant (44)
Joel Embiid (51)
Ja Morant (56)

3rd Team

LeBron James (33) played 56 games
Chris Paul (64)
Pascal Siakam (48)
Karl-Anthony Towns (46)
Trae Young (43)

[Phoenix]

2021 all-nba ( 72 game season)

1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (46)
Stephen Curry (39) played 63 games
Luka Dončić (42)
Nikola Jokić (47)
Kawhi Leonard

2nd Team

Joel Embiid (49)
LeBron James (42)
Damian Lillard (42)
Chris Paul (51)
Julius Randle (41)

3rd Team

Bradley Beal (34) played 60 games
Jimmy Butler (40)
Paul George (47)
Rudy Gobert (52)
Kyrie Irving (46)

[Phoenix]

So of the last 5 all-NBA teams, the only players first option, second option, defensive player, whatever....who didn't win 40 games were:

2023:
Luka who missed 16 games and won 38
Dame who missed 24 games and won 33

2022:
Lebron who missed 26 games and won 33


2021( 72 game season):
Steph who missed 9 games but the final record was 39-33 so a winning season regardless
Beal who missed 12 games and won 34, averaged 31.3 so no way he's not getting voted in


Suffice to say, Richmond playing 78 games and winning 27 like he did in 94 ain't getting an all-NBA nod nowadays. 2004 Tmac winning 21 ain't cutting it either.

Oh BTW, can someone please give Jamal Murray some winning spotlight love FFS? Dude averages 20+ every season, 26 on a title run, team wins 50 games practically every year and he can't even get into the all-star game?

[3ba11]

.
.
All-NBA selections that won 20-40 games since 1980 (2nd options in bold)

1980 Dantley - 24 wins
1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1982 Dantley - 25 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
1986 Robertson - 35 wins
1987 Lever - 37 wins
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
1992 Willis - 34 wins
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Dominique - 27 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2005 Lebron - 35 wins
2012 Chandler - 36 wins
2012 Melo - 36 wins
2012 Love - 26 wins
2012 Dwight - 37 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins

CONCLUSION: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years.. They need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their dominance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely dominate enough to make All-NBA with losing teams... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.