The biggest LeBron hater on YouTube just put Kobe #2 on his top 10 list

[Soundwave]

The problem with that approach is that it removes an obvious component: cognition. Basketball IQ, awareness, decision-making; how you think about the game heavily influences the choices you make on the court. For all of Hakeem's skill, he was lacking between the ears and as a result continually displayed poor shot selection and weak passing reads.

Passing is arguably the least important aspect for a center, it's a nice to have, not a must have IMO. Yes Jokic breaks the mold but he is a unicorn of a player.

It looks like this guy's list is heavily slanted towards guys who are great offensively and defensively too and Hakeem certainly would be way up there on that basis.

[Soundwave]

Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.

Depends on how much you put into a player's absolute prime.

If you gathered the best centers ever and put '95 Hakeem in there, would he cook a lot of them? Maybe even all of them? Quite possibly yeah.

The other thing is it's not like Hakeem played all his career with a defacto superstar. He upset the Lakers early in his career with Ralph Sampson, won a title in '94 with arguably Vernon Maxwell as his no.2 option. He did get Clyde Drexler finally by '95, but Drexler was declining by that point.

[Full Court]

No player was better than LeBron from 2009-2018.

2019 goes to Kawhi. LeBron got injured that year. 2020 goes to LeBron.

Curry was better than LeBron in 2021, but LeBron wasn't at his best anymore. He was 36 years old by then.

Hakeem was in his late 20's when Ewing had surpassed him as a player for a bit.

If we're only talking about single years, then Kobe and Wade were also better than Lebron in his prime.

[1987_Lakers]

If we're only talking about single years, then Kobe and Wade were also better than Lebron in his prime.

LeBron surpassed Kobe in 2009.

Wade himself will tell you he was never better than Bron.

[Full Court]

LeBron surpassed Kobe in 2009.

Wade himself will tell you he was never better than Bron.

So 4 years into the league and Lebron hadn't reached prime yet?

And Wade was being humble. Everyone knows he was better than Lebron before his knees became shot.

[1987_Lakers]

So 4 years into the league and Lebron hadn't reached prime yet?

And Wade was being humble. Everyone knows he was better than Lebron before his knees became shot.

He was 18 when he came into the league. Became a superstar by age 20 and won his first MVP by age 24. I don't know what you find so funny.

And no, peak Wade was amazing but most fans had LeBron ranked ahead of him pretty much their entire careers. 2009 included. I guess you could argue 2006 because of what Wade did in the Finals, but LeBron was only 21 at that point. Only a doofus would hold that against him.

[Full Court]

He was 18 when he came into the league. Became a superstar by age 20 and won his first MVP by age 24. I don't know what you find so funny.

And no, peak Wade was amazing but most fans had LeBron ranked ahead of him pretty much their entire careers. 2009 included. I guess you could argue 2006 because of what Wade did in the Finals, but LeBron was only 21 at that point. Only a doofus would hold that against him.

I don't know who the "most fans" that you reference are, but probably Bronie fluffers that you hang out with. Wade was better 2008 and 2009 - both of which were Lebron's prime years.

[1987_Lakers]

2008??? Wade missed like half the season and didn't even average 25 a game.

As for 2009

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/vie....php?t=2433040

Stop talking out your ass.

[Full Court]

2008??? Wade missed like half the season and didn't even average 25 a game.

As for 2009

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/vie....php?t=2433040

Stop talking out your ass.

And how are you going to say Lebron was the best player in 2020 when he wasn't even the best player on his team??? LeCarried by AD.

[1987_Lakers]

And how are you going to say Lebron was the best player in 2020 when he wasn't even the best player on his team??? LeCarried by AD.

What happened to your Wade argument?

[Full Court]

What happened to your Wade argument?

Everyone knows prime Wade was better than Lebron.

But while we're on the subject, you know who else was better than prime Lebron?









TOM BRADY

[HoopsNY]

Peak wise you could make the case. But he also couldn't get out the first round 5 years in a row during his prime. Other all-time greats would never hear the end of it if that was the case for them.

Not sure how you could have Hakeem top 5 and not even have Shaq in the top 10.

Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.

You always say the same things and I've repeatedly provided context, but you then reiterate the same arguments without ever responding. It's very strange.

I'll say it again:

The Rockets were the dynasty to be but injuries to Sampson, coke addictions of guys like Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas, led to subsequent releases and bans. They added guys like Thorpe but gave up McCray in the process, who was a valuable piece. There's good reason to believe that if that group was healthy and was able to stay together, that they would have competed for 2 titles in the late 80s.

Hakeem's first round exits are misleading because of this. You're citing his '91 season but forgetting that was the season he had the orbital bone injury which really affected his play ability, and he only started in 50 games that year. Prior to the injury, Hakeem was putting up something like 25/14/3/2/4 on 50%.

'92 was the season management suspended him for in the midst of a playoff run. Houston went 0-5 during the suspension and were just 2-10 without Dream for the season. It was the season the front office accused him of faking an injury, which he denied. But things got really shitty in Houston and he wanted out. I think Houston wins 50 games with Hakeem not missing time, easily.

I also think it's easy to cherrypick four 1st round exits (arbitrary numbers as well), especially considering the streak of woes that they had due to the demise of his cast. But we can cherrypick a lot of other players and similar problems.

MJ's first three seasons were all prime years, yet he got bounced out of the 1st round each year.

Kareem also had five seasons during his prime where he either missed the playoffs or exited the first round, but you conveniently left that out.

1973: Loss to GSW
1975: Missed playoffs
1976: Missed playoffs
1978: Loss to SEA
1981: Loss to HOU

'73 was the semifinals, but the first round nonetheless. I'm really curious why Kareem doesn't get held to the same standard, especially when he's higher on literally everyone else's list (except mine).

Kobe either didn't make the playoffs or was a 1st round exit three years in a row between 2005-07.

KG was a 1st round exit 7 years in a row. In Steph's first 5 seasons, he got out of the 1st round once. Not saying he was in his prime immediately, but why doesn't Dream get credit for at least making the playoffs his first season, and finals his second, if others couldn't do the same? Oh I forgot...there's context.

And what's this whole thing about passing that people seem to be hyper-fixated on, which again is decontextualized. Everyone seems to forget that in those days, it was really about the system. Once you surrounded a center with shooters, then his true passing ability became exposed.

Shaq's passing looked elevated in the triangle. Duncan's passing becomes more noticeable after 2006. Hakeem was no different. Houston was the first 3 and D team. Rudy explicitly mentioned their goal was to surround Hakeem with shooters, and it's why he looked as good as he did passing out of doubles and triples. The results were clear. Houston jumped from a 20th ranked offense to 6th in 1993, and of course went the distance in 1994 and 1995.

PS Shaq '00-'03: 3.1 APG
PS Hakeem '93-'96: 4.4 APG

I'm not even saying Hakeem was necessarily better at passing, but man, the context continues to be lost when we dissect his career and it's a shame because he simply didn't have the luxuries most of these other guys did.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ's first three seasons were all prime years, yet he got bounced out of the 1st round each year.

Kareem also had five seasons during his prime where he either missed the playoffs or exited the first round, but you conveniently left that out.

1973: Loss to GSW
1975: Missed playoffs
1976: Missed playoffs
1978: Loss to SEA
1981: Loss to HOU

'73 was the semifinals, but the first round nonetheless. I'm really curious why Kareem doesn't get held to the same standard, especially when he's higher on literally everyone else's list (except mine).

Kobe either didn't make the playoffs or was a 1st round exit three years in a row between 2005-07.

KG was a 1st round exit 7 years in a row. In Steph's first 5 seasons, he got out of the 1st round once. Not saying he was in his prime immediately, but why doesn't Dream get credit for at least making the playoffs his first season, and finals his second, if others couldn't do the same? Oh I forgot...there's context.

This is ridiculous

MJ also won 5 MVPs, won 6 titles, and was best player of the 90's
Kareem won 6 MVPs, won 5 titles, and was best player of the 70s
Steph was a late bloomer, and I don't think anyone has him top 5 ever.
KG is not even top 10 in most lists you see.
Only casuals have Kobe in the top 5

I can't rank a guy top 5 ever when there were two other players at your own position during your own prime at one point who were better than you. Even Brad Daugherty made All-NBA Team over Hakeem in '92.

He has the peak play, but doesn't have the accolades to be considered top 5 ever.

[HoopsNY]

This is ridiculous

MJ also won 5 MVPs, won 6 titles, and was best player of the 90's
Kareem won 6 MVPs, won 5 titles, and was best player of the 70s
Steph was a late bloomer, and I don't think anyone has him top 5 ever.
KG is not even top 10 in most lists you see.
Only casuals have Kobe in the top 5

I can't rank a guy top 5 ever when there were two other players at your own position during your own prime at one point who were better than you. Even Brad Daugherty made All-NBA Team over Hakeem in '92.

So when disproven, you move the goalposts. These were your exact words:

But he also couldn't get out the first round 5 years in a row during his prime. Other all-time greats would never hear the end of it if that was the case for them.

But other ATGs did have similar or the same woes. Instead of saying, "hey, I was wrong," you double down on it but move the goalposts.

This happened with Kareem. Your response? A deflection I showed you how we can cherrypick data and create arbitrary lines. Hakeem took his team the playoffs and then the finals within his first 2 seasons. By your logic, there should be no excuse for guys like MJ, LeBron, Steph, or Kobe.

[1987_Lakers]

I probably worded that a bit wrong, the problem is the other players you mentioned have a shit tons of titles or MVPs or are not even top 5 at all and a lot of them did not have 5 seasons in a row where they had 1st round exits or missed the playoffs during their prime. Hakeem simply doesn’t have the accolades to be top 5 and to be honest it’s only a matter of time he moves out the top 10, you could make case Curry has surpassed him already.