Russell to LeBron: "Thank you for leaving me off your Mt. Rushmore."

[Pointguard]

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Its actually extremely very broad. I'm not just saying shooting, handling, passing - I'm saying creativity, resourcefulness, and defensive adjustments.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We are talking Russell, you are seriously not thinking that is something not being considered. But once again, he may not be. Nate Thurmond was the better one on one defender and Aurabach used half time on the NBA to lie to people and say Russell was the only player that blocked shots and kept it in play.

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.

[Pointguard]

I started a thread several hours ago;

fpliii and CavaliersFTW, I respect you guys. But I have to say it, you're just too sensitive in this particular thread.

Tho, I saw some posts of Pointguard via quotes and it's saddening that he just keeps BSing around...

You greatly underestimate your friends. I can't BS around with them. They're smart and have tenacity. Its just that with Russell he's hard to measure, prove and establish his influence. The only saddening thing is that you aren't brave enough to say your piece. I know it, you know it, everybody else is beginning to know it.

[Simple Jack]

Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.

Defensive football players?

[jlip]

Pointguard,

Observe how Oscar Robertson who is on the short list of the most fundamentally sound and skilled players of all time describes what qualifies as basketball skills in his autobiography,

"Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all your energy too early or give away all your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man to man defense while also knowing where the ball is - those are skills."

Link

The bold part is significant because it involves having great skill with the main piece of equipment in a player's hand. In light of that take into consideration the following quotes regarding Russell's passing skills:

"You couldn't begin to count the ways we missed him. People think about him in terms of defense and rebounding, but he had been the key to our offense. He made the best pass more than anyone I have ever played with. That mattered to people like Nelson, Howell, Siefried, Sanders, and myself. None of us were one on one players...Russell made us better offensive players. His ability as a passer, pick- setter, and general surmiser of offense has always been over looked."

Hondo: Celtic Man in Motion

[I]

[JamiesChrist]

Those 5' 10" white guys tho

[MichaelCorleone]

Those 5' 6" white guys tho

Fixed.

[Pointguard]

Jlip if you seen me post here I never sell skills short. Kidd could dominate a game without scoring because of his skill of knowing his players and their timing. And Russell was one of the better passing bigmen. I give it to him. When I saw the Youtube clips of him three years ago he wasn't playing like Kidd or could be confused with being effective like Kidd. His team did indeed play more organized defense and passed better than their opponents. I recall that. I do recall opponents sometimes being over cautious of where Russell was.

This where I say Fpliii was good at getting at. Russell was perhaps closer to being ubiquitous on the court as much as anybody. His presence was all over even when he wasn't there - like Mutombo in his prime. I would rather Russell have the ball than him doing back doors on my team. So he, and his ghost, really did play a 40 minute game (as I notice West and Oscar didn't play in fear of his presence - the superstars all probably played their game). Jordan was his equal because his speed and quickness was crazy on defense and if you made a mistake it was over. Magic controlled the game better than anybody, pace and having teams playing Laker ball without knowing it, so those three were operating beyond what was easily visible and had tentacles well beyond what was plain... and into what was psychologically working on opponents.

[Pointguard]

Defensive football players?

Football is the most compartmentalized game I can think of? Quarterbacks, runningbacks and receivers get most of the glory though.

[jstern]

Damm

Indeed.

I don't mind Russell saying that because I've always found that the best of the best have an insane amount of competitiveness. Like real competitiveness that I can't explain.

[fpliii]

Jlip if you seen me post here I never sell skills short. Kidd could dominate a game without scoring because of his skill of knowing his players and their timing. And Russell was one of the better passing bigmen. I give it to him. When I saw the Youtube clips of him three years ago he wasn't playing like Kidd or could be confused with being effective like Kidd. His team did indeed play more organized defense and passed better than their opponents. I recall that. I do recall opponents sometimes being over cautious of where Russell was.

This where I say Fpliii was good at getting at. Russell was perhaps closer to being ubiquitous on the court as much as anybody. His presence was all over even when he wasn't there - like Mutombo in his prime. I would rather Russell have the ball than him doing back doors on my team. So he, and his ghost, really did play a 40 minute game (as I notice West and Oscar didn't play in fear of his presence - the superstars all probably played their game). Jordan was his equal because his speed and quickness was crazy on defense and if you made a mistake it was over. Magic controlled the game better than anybody, pace and having teams playing Laker ball without knowing it, so those three were operating beyond what was easily visible and had tentacles well beyond what was plain... and into what was psychologically working on opponents.

Interesting theory (regarding ghosts and omnipresence on the court).

That's truly terrifying to imagine (especially as an opponent). Who else do you think could qualify? I'd imagine it'd have to be a very short list, or else it wouldn't be as remarkable.

[knicksman]

LMAO this clown including Oscar. Who wants to root for losers unless youre a loser yourself. fcking beta

[pauk]

Way to go Russell Westbrook.

[Flash31]

Can't believe Lebron put Oscar on the Mount Rushmore thing, that guy is a bonafide empty stat padder. I guess Lebron aspires to be that.

The Mount Rushmore should be:
The Greatest Player
The Greatest Rivalry in the greatest era (80s) that revitalized the NBA to new heights
The Greatest Winner

So
Greatest Player--Wilt
80s Rivalry-Bird,Magic
Greatest Winner--Russell


so

Wilt,Bill Russell,Larry Bird,Magic Johnson

so what about Kareem?Jordan?

Greatest Winner-Russell
Greatest Player--Wilt
Longest Stretch of Dominance and good to great stats,longevity---Kareem
Greatest Guard,Great Stretch of o and d,Most Famous Player and Huge Winner,2nd in stats----Jordan
GOAT PG,Triple Double Machine----Oscar
Bird,Magic 80s Dominance and stretch if greatness,revitalized the league----Bird,Magic


so you have

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan,Oscar,Bird,Magic

Thats 7 possible GOAT,MT RUSHMORE Types

AND that's NOT INCLUDING
Shaq,Duncan,Thurmond

[Pointguard]

Interesting theory (regarding ghosts and omnipresence on the court).

That's truly terrifying to imagine (especially as an opponent). Who else do you think could qualify? I'd imagine it'd have to be a very short list, or else it wouldn't be as remarkable.

I said he really did play 40mins a game when I mean to say he was present in opponents head for 40mins a game.

My cornerstone historic art piece would be

Magic (To Give is to Receive) 80's PG
Jordan (Flight) 90's, SG
Wilt (Mythology) 60's, Center
Russell (To be or not to be - Competition)50's PF
Bird (Armed and Dangerous )80's SF.

[AlphaWolf24]

Was really hoping bran would respond with ..."Russell played in weak era"..

or

"Originally Posted by JamiesChrist
Those 5' 6" white guys tho"

Or even..."I could win 11 Rangz too if there was only 7 teams."





disappointing.