Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Toronto Raptors Forum

Toronto Raptors Forum Toronto Raptors message board - Toronto Raptors forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-28-2014, 07:03 AM   #16
GoRapz
Fire Dwane Casey
 
GoRapz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,308
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Not yet, but I think DeRozan has the talent and capability to pass him in a couple years when he further develops his game.

Bosh was a beast when he was here. Everyone knew we would go to him when the game came down to the line and not too many players were able to stop him. When the ball was in Bosh's hands you knew he was going to hit the 15 foot jumper or go to the line for two because he could blow by his man with ease.
GoRapz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 11:25 AM   #17
Jballer
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,399
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Major disagreement. Playoff play during his Raptor career indicates that he's neither of these things.

Re Bosh

Hard to specifically argue only in context of the Raps when he was here.

He didnt have many clutch playoff games to impress period. As a young player he wanted the ball, took the offensive pressure and I recall a lot of hustle - played hurt - tried to will the teams to win in the "last season stretch" where we blew the playoff and ended handing it over to the Bulls.

I mean you are correct about his "playoff performance" as a Raptor but then the body of work is so small we really arent talking about anything. I think we only made the playoffs 2 seasons when Bosh was here 2006/2007. Further as the roster appears we may not have had the talent to be there consistently anyway. Turk, ONeal, Barges, Calderon... ummm really ?

I wasnt arguing he was Dirk or Duncan. Just that he was willing to be clutch - be accountable.

My "general observation" was he was a great player - but comparing Derozan to Bosh is comparing apples to oranges. Different players in different roles in different positions.

The more logical comparisson to make is : Is Derozan at this point on this Raptors team as good as Vince was at the same point in time when he was a Raptor...

Also not easy to say exactly. Vince had AD, Oakly, TMac all of who were at one time all stars if not those specific seasons. Derozan has Klow, Val and Amir.. none of which are all stars (yet?). I think Vince was better but I would not jump on a guy for making an arguement the other way based on the comparable roster talents.

Last edited by Jballer : 02-28-2014 at 11:37 AM.
Jballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 02:50 PM   #18
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,666
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy
Sometimes he is on and it's fun to watch but there are times where he isn't and aside from Vasquez, he is the Raptor's only REAL penetrating offensive threat. With his athleticism I feel like Demar could get to the line more than he is right now. His ball handling has improved greatly from seasons past (could still improve some though).

Kyle is pretty good at penetration too.

I agree with you that DeMar can get to the line more. He just came off his best month at getting to the line. I feel like next season, his goal should be getting to line about 10 times a game. Asking for too much, but I do think he has that ability. His all-star reputation will also get him some recognition for favourable calls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jballer
I mean you are correct about his "playoff performance" as a Raptor but then the body of work is so small we really arent talking about anything. I think we only made the playoffs 2 seasons when Bosh was here 2006/2007. Further as the roster appears we may not have had the talent to be there consistently anyway. Turk, ONeal, Barges, Calderon... ummm really ?

Also TJ Ford and Anthony Parker. I think those guys are really underrated for what they did. I remember when Ford was the guy who was making the big buckets down the stretch for our first playoff win since Game 6 vs the Sixers back in 2001. Parker during the 07 season was so huge for us, especially when he missed time we were caught in losing games without him.

Quote:
Also not easy to say exactly. Vince had AD, Oakly, TMac all of who were at one time all stars if not those specific seasons. Derozan has Klow, Val and Amir.. none of which are all stars (yet?). I think Vince was better but I would not jump on a guy for making an arguement the other way based on the comparable roster talents.

Well, to me Kyle Lowry is an all-star. I think every logical NBA fan sees this. Even the website analysts knew this:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10...nubs-surprises

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/p...all-star-snubs

Even the players knew this:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10...-star-reserves

Nobody can convince me that Joe freaking Johnson was an all-star in 2014. He got it because of rep and some bone head coaches decided to give it to him over Kyle in 1 or 2 votes.

Now, as for potential players becoming all-stars ? Depends on guys like Terrence and Jonas. I think Terrence has become a better player than Jonas this season since being inserted into the lineup. He's better on defense and his versatility on offense makes him much more of a threat.
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 05:44 PM   #19
Jballer
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,399
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

I think we sorta agree in a disagreeable way.

My issue isnt so much that Bosh > Derozan or vice versa. My point is there is no use comparing. Apples and oranges. Bigs and smalls.

My contention is a better comparison - if one is even needed - is Vince > Demar or Demar > Vince ... at the same point in their careers as Raptors. Both being 2/3 shooters and drivers.
Jballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 07:56 PM   #20
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,282
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

In my mind, accomplishments are everything. And 3 playoff wins in 7 years is nothing to call home about.

About Bosh specificially, as an individual player absolutely he's better than Derozan. He was the better ISO guy as has been said, and at times he was more clutch with the game on the line. BUT, people tend to overlook or just plain forget all those times we'd dump in into him with the game on the line and he'd miss the shot, make a bad pass that turns into a turnover, get stripped, or fumble the ball. He was very frustrating to watch in that way. Yes it was in part because of how heavily we depended on him but it was just as much because he couldnt be counted on to be that #1 option on a legit playoff team.

Derozan isn't that guy either but yet i'd prefer him on a team like our current one and think the balance is taking us places we haven't been before. And if we win a round with him on our roster, both him and Lowry will have proven themselves more than Bosh ever did.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 09:14 PM   #21
RapsFan
Great college starter
 
RapsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,696
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

People often overrate what's in front of them. It's like a Bucks fan saying Brandon Knight is better then Ray Allen.
RapsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 10:24 PM   #22
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,666
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
People often overrate what's in front of them. It's like a Bucks fan saying Brandon Knight is better then Ray Allen.



It's not even remotely close to saying that. That's just more hyperbole from the Bosh side, even though it's not necessary.
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 11:42 PM   #23
RapsFan
Great college starter
 
RapsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,696
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

I disagree. We have a player that has basically one above average season on a team that is really lacking overall talent and everyone is going nuts for him.

I like the direction derozen is on, but it would be nice to see what he could do with more talent around him. Would he still be a lead player of fall back into a more complimentary role.
RapsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 02:05 AM   #24
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,666
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Where is the lack of talent and which position ?

PG ? It's our deepest (don't know why we need 5 PG's), Lowry and Vasquez are a good combo. De Colo might be a surprise, he can play SG as can Vasquez.

SG ? DeRozan and Ross, but since DeRozan is an all star and is currently 3rd in the league mpg, he doesn't really need a full-time back up and Ross can move to SF. Salmons can get some time here too.

SF ? Ross has a good job, while undersized. Salmons can defend 3 positions, but taking his age and contract into account, he's probably just rental and the Raps will shop for someone else.

PF ? Probably our strongest position in terms of overall productivity on both ends. Amir, Patterson, and Tyler all give their best here. All 3 can play C too.

C ? Jonas is definitely developing, but he will need a more legitimate back up than Hayes. Especially if Jonas is having confidence problems.

This all equals to the Toronto Raptors being the only Eastern Conference team to rank both Top 10 in offense (10th) and defense (7th).

Maybe it's the "superstar" talent were lacking, but then again, we would have draft, trade, or sign someone for that. If it's just positional needs, we probably need a more legit SF and C at the backup positions. Other than that, I think veterans have done a good job helping out our young core of DeMar, Jonas, and Ross.

Infact, only 2 players are over 30+ years old on this team (Salmons and Hayes), so I can see younger talent coming over and DeMar has to share the load. But I don't see how that's a problem for him and fall back to a complimentary role. Like I said before, he's reading defenses, driving and kicking, not forcing shots, not turning it over, etc... at a fantastic rate. His passing has clearly been the most improved version of his game IMO and it has helped him have his best season, along with Lowry and Ross to having their best season and vice versa.

Today's game against the Warriors showed one of the better games he's had this season, playing both sides of the floor well, while doing all of what I just stated.

The Brandon Knight comparison really doesn't make too much sense since it's his 3rd year in the league, he has already moved to another bad team, while having a negative impact on both offense and defense. It's true that DeMar came into the league very raw and his impact wasn't very sound early on, but he did eventually improve his overall game. I don't see Knight ever having the same type of impact while having similar teammates.
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 03:48 AM   #25
kmart
No props needed
 
kmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,069
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Where is the lack of talent and which position ?

PG ? It's our deepest (don't know why we need 5 PG's), Lowry and Vasquez are a good combo. De Colo might be a surprise, he can play SG as can Vasquez.

SG ? DeRozan and Ross, but since DeRozan is an all star and is currently 3rd in the league mpg, he doesn't really need a full-time back up and Ross can move to SF. Salmons can get some time here too.

SF ? Ross has a good job, while undersized. Salmons can defend 3 positions, but taking his age and contract into account, he's probably just rental and the Raps will shop for someone else.

PF ? Probably our strongest position in terms of overall productivity on both ends. Amir, Patterson, and Tyler all give their best here. All 3 can play C too.

C ? Jonas is definitely developing, but he will need a more legitimate back up than Hayes. Especially if Jonas is having confidence problems.

This all equals to the Toronto Raptors being the only Eastern Conference team to rank both Top 10 in offense (10th) and defense (7th).

Maybe it's the "superstar" talent were lacking, but then again, we would have draft, trade, or sign someone for that. If it's just positional needs, we probably need a more legit SF and C at the backup positions. Other than that, I think veterans have done a good job helping out our young core of DeMar, Jonas, and Ross.

Infact, only 2 players are over 30+ years old on this team (Salmons and Hayes), so I can see younger talent coming over and DeMar has to share the load. But I don't see how that's a problem for him and fall back to a complimentary role. Like I said before, he's reading defenses, driving and kicking, not forcing shots, not turning it over, etc... at a fantastic rate. His passing has clearly been the most improved version of his game IMO and it has helped him have his best season, along with Lowry and Ross to having their best season and vice versa.

Today's game against the Warriors showed one of the better games he's had this season, playing both sides of the floor well, while doing all of what I just stated.

The Brandon Knight comparison really doesn't make too much sense since it's his 3rd year in the league, he has already moved to another bad team, while having a negative impact on both offense and defense. It's true that DeMar came into the league very raw and his impact wasn't very sound early on, but he did eventually improve his overall game. I don't see Knight ever having the same type of impact while having similar teammates.

Must say I agree. It'll be fun to watch this team keep on building from its young core. It's not just Demar too, it's T Ross, Valancuinas, Amir, and hopefully Lowry. The true test for Derozan is if he can maintain All-Star status and make this team a consistent threat to be a home playoff team. If he does Ill take Derozan over Bosh.

After reading your post I can't help but to give Colangelo credit (even though his admitted tank sucked). The core of this team is still young and will many years together. Hopefully they can keep Lowry in the offseason.
kmart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 11:04 AM   #26
RapsFan
Great college starter
 
RapsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,696
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

This 'talent' wouldn't even make the playoffs in the West. We've been through this before guys! We made a run in a horrid East, re-signed people, gave extensions to coaches and GMs and it was all a mirage. I hope that's not the case this year but forgive me if I'm not jumping up and down.

You're listing the SF position with the name Ross and Salmons like it's some sort of strength and PF because they try hard. Effort is great don't get me wrong, but a lot of our key guys are playing a role they shouldn't be. Meaning, Amir would be an unreal 3rd big (backing up both 4 and 5).

I do like that DeRozen is playing this way in NOT a contract year (Lowry).

Last edited by RapsFan : 03-03-2014 at 11:06 AM.
RapsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 11:51 AM   #27
kmart
No props needed
 
kmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,069
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
This 'talent' wouldn't even make the playoffs in the West. We've been through this before guys! We made a run in a horrid East, re-signed people, gave extensions to coaches and GMs and it was all a mirage. I hope that's not the case this year but forgive me if I'm not jumping up and down.

You're listing the SF position with the name Ross and Salmons like it's some sort of strength and PF because they try hard. Effort is great don't get me wrong, but a lot of our key guys are playing a role they shouldn't be. Meaning, Amir would be an unreal 3rd big (backing up both 4 and 5).

I do like that DeRozen is playing this way in NOT a contract year (Lowry).

To be fair the did go 6-12 with Rudy Gay. Let's say they go 9-9 in that stretch they would be competing for a playoff spot in the west. As for the SF position I do like that Ross is still young and as room to grow.
kmart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 01:08 PM   #28
RapsFan
Great college starter
 
RapsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,696
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmart
To be fair the did go 6-12 with Rudy Gay. Let's say they go 9-9 in that stretch they would be competing for a playoff spot in the west. As for the SF position I do like that Ross is still young and as room to grow.

I'll take young over old any day for sure, but SF it's exactly a spot we should be celebrating.

In terms of the topic of this thread, we have a guy with high usage putting up numbers on a team with mediocre talent. I'm just not ready to anoint him the 2nd best Raptor of all time.
RapsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 01:50 PM   #29
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,666
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmart
After reading your post I can't help but to give Colangelo credit (even though his admitted tank sucked). The core of this team is still young and will many years together. Hopefully they can keep Lowry in the offseason.

Well, I would give credit to BC and Masai. Masai helped put the pieces together (by accident, really, since he wanted to initially tear this team apart). BC's negatives is why he ultimately failed despite having the pieces that are blossoming today:

-Trading TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and the rights to Roy Hibbert for Jermaine O'Neal and the rights to Nathan Jawai.

-Signing Hedo Turkuglo to the contract.

-Keeping Bargnani for 7 years and not trading him away sooner.

-Trading for Rudy Gay and his massive contract.

-Also, while Jose Calderon was good for us, his defense and ball stopping were also not a plus and I feel he should have been packaged sooner.


So really, Masai trading away 2 negative for a positive in the bench and picks has really set this team back on course to another winning season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
This 'talent' wouldn't even make the playoffs in the West. We've been through this before guys! We made a run in a horrid East, re-signed people, gave extensions to coaches and GMs and it was all a mirage. I hope that's not the case this year but forgive me if I'm not jumping up and down.

I understand that you have your doubts. Many Raptor fans do, falling back to some cliche, negative statements like "fool's gold" and "treadmill team". But really, even Masai recognizes that the East is weak and has stated that he won't sacrifice anything for anything short sighted.

Quote:
You're listing the SF position with the name Ross and Salmons like it's some sort of strength and PF because they try hard. Effort is great don't get me wrong, but a lot of our key guys are playing a role they shouldn't be. Meaning, Amir would be an unreal 3rd big (backing up both 4 and 5).

You don't think Ross is a strength at SF ? He's has clearly been the best wing defender (done a great job on guys like Paul George twice, Kevin Durant, Arron Afflalo, Kyrie Irving, etc...) for the Raptors since being inserted into the starting lineup, while giving just under 13ppg for a guy who hasn't even been assigned 3rd or 4th option role. He has been playing better than Jonas since being put in the starting line up. Most would agree that he's the X-factor to our offense, his 3 point shooting is also very good, over 40%.

Salmons has back problems right now, but when he's locked in he can give you defense as well, plus he can create and hit jump shots and layups. Like I said before, were lacking SIZE at the SF spot, but it's certainly not a weakness, it's definitely a strength. I also forgot to mention, DeMar can swing over and guard SF's as well, he's done a couple of times this season.

PF's don't just try hard, they give the results. Amir is very underrated on the team because his stats don't look great. His defense, setting screens, and overall energy contributes to a lot of this team's success. I do agree that we might need to look for a more ideal low post scoring threat that can also play defense, since that's what the Raptors lack the most on this team. Could Amir be a good back up ? Yes, I think it would be ideal, but he's done well as a starter too. He does it all at a very acceptable effort.
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 02:25 PM   #30
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,666
Default Re: Is Derozan as good as Bosh was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
In my mind, accomplishments are everything. And 3 playoff wins in 7 years is nothing to call home about.

Little late responding here, but I did want to touch up on this. Bosh's performances in those 3 wins:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270424028

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270501028

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280424028


He noticeably under performed in 2 of those games. The story of those 3 wins weren't even him as the top performer nor the story of the game, but his wing players (Parker, Ford, and Calderon).

I don't get the hate Bosh's supporting cast gets. They might not have been as talented as the one DeMar currently as, but they were certainly an experienced group that were actually out performing the star player on their team.

Now to be fair, I wouldn't give DeMar the benefit of the doubt if he performed like that as well. But I definitely agree with your statement, that if DeMar and Kyle do take this team further into the playoffs, then they would have done more than Bosh ever did, post season wise. Which to me, means much more.
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:02 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy