Analysis of the shots LeBron James takes

[Turbo Slayer]

So you're calling the historical record a "narrative" now?

Lebron's 8 Finals happened after he formed a strong team in a conference that didn't require a strong team to win it - there were no weak teams winning the West - only the East, yet Lebron formed a strong team/stacked the deck in a weak conference.. aka cheated in plain view yet you respect him

Secondly...... MJ lit that fire and set an example defensively, which galvanized weak athletes like Kerr, Paxson, Wennington and Kukoc to play good defense.. Otoh, Lebron can't get superior athletes like Shumpert, George Hill, Crowder, Jeff Green, JR Smith, or Hood to play good defense because he himself is a matador.

Specifically, Lebron had superior rim protection, more defensive rebounders, and more athletic guards, yet he couldn't get this group of superior athletes to play good defense.. you'll claim that MJ had all-defender teammates (Pippen, Grant), but Lebron had more (Hughes, Varejao, Battier, Wade), along with more rim protection, more athletic guards and more defensive rebounders.

So MJ was a superior leader on both ends

Finally, Kobe had an equal or worse roster than the 2010 Celtics, 2008 Spurs, and 2008 Celtics... More importantly, Lebron never had a worse roster than anyone, except maybe 2007, 2015, and 2018 Finals.

1. Almost everyone needs help to get over the hump. Almost everybody teamed up or formed strong teams. Jordan couldnt win until he got Pippen an alltime great and a team that was capable of winning 50 games without him and MJ is the GOAT in my opinion.

Titles have been won with stacked teams throughout history. You are denying this which you cant handle reality.

2. Again...irrelevant. You are just telling arbitrary statements that doesnt mean anything. Try again.

Yes MJ is the GOAT. Theres no need to state it. Also, I never claimed that MJ had all-defender teammates. Someone must have said it. So its a non-point and it doesnt apply to me.

4. Again your argument fails. How are the Lakers had worst rosters than the Celtics, Spurs if they won against them? Your point makes no sense.

The 2008 Lakers were also better than the Spurs in defense, offense, and SRS. So your point fails there also.



The 2010 Lakers were better in terms of offense/defense and SRS than the 2010 Celtics. BTW the 2010 Celtics didnt have a real 1st option. Also the Celtics were suffering b/c of older Pierce and post injury KG so your argument fails in that department too.

The Laker werent better than the Celtics in 2008 b/c the Celtics had the Big 3 and a better supporting cast so they dismantled the Lakers in 5 games.

[3ball]

The problem with you is that you never consider defense. The Heat were torched b/c of defense. Defense was the problem.

Remember when Pippen led the Bulls in scoring in Game 5 of the 91' Finals?

It's no coincidence that his best scoring game occurred in a game where he didn't guard Magic at all.. This allowed him to go off on offense.

That's how basketball works - again, the Spurs only went off on the Heat because the Heat made them work the least (scored the least against them)

[LAmbruh]

5 stars!

[Manny98]

Remember when Pippen led the Bulls in scoring in Game 5 of the 91' Finals?

It's no coincidence that his best scoring game occurred in a game where he didn't guard Magic at all.. This allowed him to go off on offense.

That's how basketball works - again, the Spurs only went off on the Heat because the Heat made them work the least (scored the least against them)

No it isn't because he still played hard on defense that game, playing the passing lanes with 5 steals and he still guarded Magic on a couple of possessions

You say anything to try and discredit Pippen

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball logged off!

3ball couldnt refute my argument.

I always win no matter what.

[LAmbruh]

3ball logged off!

3ball couldnt refute my argument.

I always win no matter what.

[3ball]

1. Almost everyone needs help to get over the hump. Almost everybody teamed up or formed strong teams. Jordan couldnt win until he got Pippen an alltime great and a team that was capable of winning 50 games without him and MJ is the GOAT in my opinion

Everyone needs help, but MJ just needed less:

- he didn't need a 3rd scorer like Lebron

- he didn't need an equal-scoring and usage closer like Lebron

- he didn't need elite defensive help (won with #7 defense in 91' and 93.... every conference finals or Finals opponent had better defense during 1st three-peat, and except the Suns)

Titles have been won with stacked teams throughout history. You are denying this which you cant handle reality.

Stacked teams don't go 3/7 like Lebron did from 11-17'

And even if you remove 15' due to injury, that's still only 3/6 with stacked teams, aka nowhere near goat

#LeOverrated

How are the Lakers had worst rosters than the Celtics, Spurs if they won against them?

It's called an "upset".... ... are you high or something?

For example, the Mavs had a worse roster but beat the 11' Heat

Or the 89' Bulls had a lottery cast but beat the #1 SRS Cavs and their Big 4

Or when MJ finally beat the Pistons - Isiah/Dumars/Rodman/Laimbeer/Aguirre were 3x all-stars, while MJ only had 1 all-star teammate

The 2008 Lakers were also better than the Spurs in defense, offense, and SRS. So your point fails there also.

08' Spurs were defending champs, so their regular season stats are always a bit lower than the championship year

The 2010 Lakers were better in terms of offense/defense and SRS than the 2010 Celtics. BTW the 2010 Celtics didnt have a real 1st option. Also the Celtics were suffering b/c of older Pierce and post injury KG so your argument fails in that department too.

^^^ So the 10' Celtics sucked, yet Lebron lost as a huge favorite and all the advantages Kobe had (superior SRS, etc)

Lebron had 2 all-star caliber players in Jamison/Mo (Kobe only had 1 in Gasol), an all-defender in Varajao, and superior depth - but he still lost as the heavy favorite because lebron was mentally-fragile, aka quit after finding out his fully-grown Mom was dating... pathetic

[Turbo Slayer]

Everyone needs help, but MJ just needed less:

- he didn't need a 3rd scorer like Lebron

- he didn't need an equal-scoring and usage closer like Lebron

- he didn't need elite defensive help (won with #7 defense in 91' and 93.... every conference finals or Finals opponent had better defense during 1st three-peat, and except the Suns)




Stacked teams don't go 3/7 like Lebron did from 11-17'

And even if you remove 15' due to injury, that's still only 3/6 with stacked teams, aka nowhere near goat

#LeOverrated




It's called an "upset".... ... are you high or something?

For example, the Mavs had a worse roster but beat the 11' Heat

Or the 89' Bulls had a lottery cast but beat the #1 SRS Cavs and their Big 4

Or when MJ finally beat the Pistons - Isiah/Dumars/Rodman/Laimbeer/Aguirre were 3x all-stars, while MJ only had 1 all-star teammate




08' Spurs were defending champs, so their regular season stats are always a bit lower than the championship year



^^^ So the 10' Celtics sucked, yet Lebron lost as a huge favorite and all the advantages Kobe had (superior SRS, etc)

Lebron had 2 all-star caliber players in Jamison/Mo (Kobe only had 1 in Gasol), an all-defender in Varajao, and superior depth - but he still lost as the heavy favorite because lebron was mentally-fragile, aka quit after finding out his fully-grown Mom was dating... pathetic

1. Again, noone debates this. MJ is the GOAT. No one needs you to remind everyone again...

2. The 2016-17 and 2017-18 Cavs faced far more superior teams aka the 2017 and 2018 Warriors that were were much better in SRS, offense, and defense. In 2007 LeBron James had a team that was subpar in offense and defense compared to the Spurs... That was 3 Finals losses that where opposing teams simply had better supporting casts than LeBrons...

3. What are you talking about???

4. The Cavs were relying on LeBron James to do everything. I admit that LeBron James quit/choked that series but none of his supporting cast showed up. Their defense was awful that series.

[sdot_thadon]

that thread title is fire.....

[Turbo Slayer]

You diss LeBron for not being a shooter all the time yet LeBron James shoots better than Kobe (who is considered a great shooter by 3ball .ie you) on greater amounts of attempts. Not lying.

EDIT: Logging off to wash the dishes. I be back later.

[3ball]

2. 2017 and 2018 Warriors that were were much better in SRS, offense, and defense

Lebron/Kyrie/Love should be enough to face KD/Curry/Klay

The other players are mostly role players that would otherwise cancel out if not for brand of ball considerations, aka dray is far less without the system and probably would've developed as a spot-up shooter alongside lebron.

So the 2017 Cavs had enough to defeat the Warriors, if not for brand of ball considerations that simply made the Warriors a much better team than the Cavs.

2. 2017 Warriors that were much better

what if Lebron holds KD to 25 ppg, like KD's regular season average? That seems like a reasonable request.. Cavs would've won the series... ...

So why did lebron let Durant get 35 on goat efficiency?.. Lebron was the only Cav that let his man get above their regular season average, so the margin of loss would've been made up by just holding Durant to normal averages.... :..

So lebron's horrific defense is what allowed the impossible, aka wasting the goat sidekick performance (Kyrie's 29 ppg)

In 2007 LeBron James had a team that was subpar in offense and defense compared to the Spurs...

He had a worse team in the 07' Finals, but was also locked down - getting locked down is ALWAYS a black mark on a career

That was 3 Finals losses that where opposing teams simply had better supporting casts than LeBrons...

Only 2 Finals, and both are still black marks because he was locked down (07') and lost by record amount (18').

And 17' is a double whammy - he had a good enough cast and his defense allowed KD to exceed regular season averages by the margin of loss (Cavs win if lebron plays normal defense on KD instead of getting destroyed)

2. 2017 Warriors

i just realized that Durant's 35 ppg and great efficiency is Jordan-level, especially against a so-called goat and supposed era-dominator like Lebron...

So does that mean Durant = Jordan and therefore superior to Lebron?... have I just rationalized Durant back into the top 10 and ahead of Lebron?..

Indeed, 35 ppg against a prime Big 3, defending champion, and so-called goat is vastly underrated... So I guess you convinced me - KD is #10 all-time and Lebron is #11 with Kawhi closing fast.

4. The Cavs were relying on LeBron James to do everything. I admit that LeBron James quit/choked that series but none of his supporting cast showed up. Their defense was awful that series.

It's hard to show up when its needed against a good team when your capacity to step-up has been robbed, aka you've been turned into spot-up shooter, aka bron-ball

[Turbo Slayer]

Lebron/Kyrie/Love should be enough to face KD/Curry/Klay

The other players are mostly role players that would otherwise cancel out if not for brand of ball considerations, aka dray is far less without the system and probably would've developed as a spot-up shooter alongside lebron.

So the 2017 Cavs had enough to defeat the Warriors, if not for brand of ball




what if Lebron holds KD to 25 ppg, like KD's regular season average? That seems like a reasonable request.. Cavs would've won the series... ...

So why did lebron let Durant get 35 on goat efficiency?.. Lebron was the only Cav that let his man get above their regular season average, so the margin of loss would've been made up by just holding Durant to normal averages.... :..

So lebron's horrific defense is what allowed the impossible, aka wasting the goat sidekick performance (Kyrie's 29 ppg)



He had a worse team in the 07' Finals, but was also locked down - getting locked down is ALWAYS a black mark on a career



Only 2 Finals, and both are still black marks because he was locked down (07') and lost by record amount (18').

And 17' is a double whammy - he had a good enough cast and his defense allowed KD to exceed regular season averages by the margin of loss (Cavs win if lebron plays normal defense on KD instead of getting destroyed)



i just realized that Durant's 35 ppg and great efficiency is Jordan-level, especially against a so-called goat and supposed era-dominator like Lebron...

So does that mean Durant = Jordan and therefore superior to Lebron?... have I just rationalized Durant back into the top 10 and ahead of Lebron?..

Indeed, 35 ppg against a prime Big 3, defending champion, and so-called goat is vastly underrated... So I guess you convinced me - KD is #10 all-time and Lebron is #11 with Kawhi closing fast.



It's hard to show up when its needed against a good team when your capacity to step-up has been robbed, aka you've been turned into spot-up shooter, aka bron-ball

1. KD was a bad matchup for LeBron. LeBron was shouldering most of the load. Cavs were worst without LeBron off the court vs LeBron on the court. LeBron also was averaging the most minutes in the 2017 postseason (41 minutes per game). To put it simply, he was tired because he was forced to play hard on offense to keep up. He was fatigued.

What more can you expect more from James??? He averaged a 30 point triple double throughout the Finals.

Durant also had the luxury of 2 great shooters (Klay and Steph) to pass to. He had the luxury of great spacing.

BTW, the rest of the Cavs were garbage on defense. The poor defense allowed Curry and Klay to go off.

2. He was getting locked down b/c none of the Cavs players could offer James offensive help. The team was poor in 3 point shooting and getting points in the paint. It allowed the Spurs to focus on LeBron b/c James had no help. The entire Cavs team gave up 104.4 ORTG due to poor defense.

The Cavs defense and offense were subpar. Dont act like it was only LeBron James fault...

3. Yes, LeBron James didnt have good supporting casts. We discussed this before.

4. Please try to keep your narratives consistent. You blame LeBron for ¨stacking the deck¨ but you dont blame KD for doing it too???

This is going nowhere. LeBron James is easily better than KD. According to your criteria, LeBron James is better than KD b/c he have won more ¨as the man¨ as you would say.

[PeroAntic]

Nobody
No one
Absolutely not a single soul
3ball: Ultimately, Stan van Gundy....

[Turbo Slayer]

Nobody
No one
Absolutely not a single soul
3ball: Ultimately, Stan van Gundy....

[3ball]