Will Jokic surpass Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan?

[HighFlyer23]

If prime Bird and prime Jokic did every single track and field Olympic event, Bird would be victorious. Prime Bird was a significantly better athlete than Jokic.

But yes, Jokic predictive intelligence and predictive judgement are on par with Birds’

So is his touch on runners and off balance shots.

But Bird also is significantly more of a killer than Jokic. No single individual superstar ever matched Bird when it came to spite/meanness/chip-on-shoulder. Ever. Not even Kobe or the GOAT, Mike.

I have long said that Jokic is Bird’s brain and hands in a slightly smaller version of Marc Gasol’s body.

Jokic has a different mentality than Bird

Bird is top 10 but people are beginning to overrate him. Jokic is doing things that not even your Bird could do. He’s reached a level of understanding the game that few have reached.

Bird isn’t a better athlete. Jokic is much stronger and has a bigger physical presence. As far as running and jumping, it’s a wash.

[kawhileonard2]

Jokic has a different mentality than Bird

Bird is top 10 but people are beginning to overrate him. Jokic is doing things that not even your Bird could do. He’s reached a level of understanding the game that few have reached.

Bird isn’t a better athlete. Jokic is much stronger and has a bigger physical presence. As far as running and jumping, it’s a wash.

It would be interesting to see what Jokic would do against Brad Daugherty

[StrongLurk]

If Magic can be ranked in the top five all time even though he was an average at best defender, then Jokic can also make it to the top five if he wins enough rings/FMVPs/MVPs.

[John8204]

Some are now saying Jokic may become the greatest big man ever.

Jokic -
12,000 pts
6,273 rbs
3,959 assts

1 ring and 2 MVPs. It's a decent resume but he's going to have to basically double his numbers and at 27 he's just to old

[Micku]

Jokic -
12,000 pts
6,273 rbs
3,959 assts

1 ring and 2 MVPs. It's a decent resume but he's going to have to basically double his numbers and at 27 he's just to old

Do you value stat total more than stats per game, what can you do at your very best (prime/peak) or just accomplishments?

I think what matters more depends on the person.

[John8204]

Do you value stat total more than stats per game, what can you do at your very best (prime/peak) or just accomplishments?

I think what matters more depends on the person.

I think you judge players based upon their generation of players...and people who have played at that position.

[BigShotBob]

Jokic is more impactful relative to his era than Duncan. I'd rather have Duncan in 03 because his game was better suited for that era... but Jokic is a more dominant force in his own era.

He's better than Hakeem and Duncan already, but needs to dominant for more years to eclipse Shaq. Shaq had the best peak of them all and that's valued heavily.

In no world is Jokic better than Hakeem or Duncan

[1987_Lakers]

In no world is Jokic better than Hakeem or Duncan

You said Jokic would never get out of the 2nd round. You should never put his name in your mouth again.

[DMAVS41]

In no world is Jokic better than Hakeem or Duncan

In terms of his peak play...meaning the last 3 years...his level is absolutely comparable.

Where Jokic, obviously, falls short so far...is the totality of what he's done. If he wants to be on the Hakeem/Duncan level...he's going to need to win another title or two and maintain some version of this play for another 5 years...and then be quite good afterward for another 5 or so.

[kawhileonard2]

Jokic -
12,000 pts
6,273 rbs
3,959 assts

1 ring and 2 MVPs. It's a decent resume but he's going to have to basically double his numbers and at 27 he's just to old

No one cares about cumulative numbers. It's actual awards and titles for franchises that never won.

[kawhileonard2]

If he wins back to back he is probably top 20 all time

[j3lademaster]

I think it's just Shaq and Joker at this point. Those were the only two who were widely considered best in the world by the vast majority for their peaks. Hakeem always had the lingering 'but Shaq's not in his prime yet' or 'Jordan baseball' and Duncan was always an argument with Kobe.

[BarberSchool]

I think the main distinction, when we really boil it all down, is that Jokic, as an individual player, in a 1-on-1 situation, is barely even belonging in a convo like this. He lacks the ability to physically assert his own will against the oops best efforts for an extended duration. His solo iso bag (without passing or the threat of passing) isn’t really as great as his most supportive fans/fanboys think. Without his passing and mind, just strictly physically and skillwise, he isn’t special. Very good and skilled, but not truly special at all.

But that changes dramatically when we factor in his passing (better than any big in history) and his ability to read the game in real-time and essentially play thru all 4 of his teammates as an extension of his own limited abilities. He plays a different game, it’s more like he is playing against the opposing coaching staff, than the opposing players. Sure, he has opponents guarding him, but he isn’t thinking about them. He is seeing them as a positional defender who is merely an extension of the coach’s scheme.

It’s not like he is disrespecting his opponents, not at all, but it is at times, like he is looking past them. Past them, not like he is gonna blow by them or dunk on them, but looking past them because he is going to create a score that they cannot do anything about.

Many players think scoring first, and their awareness/concern about how their own defender or the nearby help can stop them, and many AVOID that line of action since they don’t want to be stopped on their attention score.

Jokic thinks differently, where the vast majority of possessions he is playing FOR/thru his teammates. He is actively trying to get two defenders to “stop him” since it will create a hugely efficient score for his teammates. He is something like if we mix an offensive lineman, or blocking tight end, and a dunk and dunk QB with league leading passer rating, yardage, and TD throws, who will only scramble for his own yards when necessary.

He’s a very unique player, in the Vlade/Webber mold, but with the ability to see the game differently and more fully.

I think the reason many can’t give him his full props, is because they cannot see the game anything like he can. A fan who was the type of player to only look for their own score, and never actively create for others, where passing was just a last second bail-out when their scoring got cutoff/stopped… these types of fans could never see why others hype him up as a potential top 10 player of all time.

Advanced stats show it, but to the layman, casual fan, or iso-selfish former player/fan, they just can’t see it and never will.

[elementally morale]

Career:

1) Duncan
2) Shaq
3) Hakeem

Peak:

1) Shaq
2) Hakeem
3) Duncan


So who will Jokic overtake? Peakwise, I'd say he is on par with Duncan and very close to Hakeem. Jokic has a chance to become better than Hakeem but he needs to improve a bit more. Being somewhat more selfish could do the trick, especially if he can also improve just slightly on defense. Jokic is obviously the worst defender of the pack but his offense beats all three at this point, I think. Jokic really is the whole team on offense. I can't see him overtaking peak Shaq though.

As for their respective careers, Jokic is way too young to be able to tell. He can and I think will be considered better than Hakeem careerwise if he can win 2 rings. To pass Shaq he will need one more MVP and 3 rings. Duncan is a longshot. We shall see.

In terms of offense, Jokic is a top 5 all time player right now. I'd say if he can win it all this year he will be considered at least top 15 player overal. Definitely top 20-25. No chance putting him lower. In the end, like 10+ years from now (if he keeps playing that long)? Top 10 is not out of the question.

What an intelligent post.

I wanted to see how my opinion changed over the years. There is no search function here and many older threads have already been deleted. I started following Jokic closely 5-6 years ago and became a real fan 3 years ago.

I was probably selling him short with top 10. On ability alone he is already there and many people will have him top 10 after this year IF the Nuggets win another ring. I personally would say top 15 or borderline top 10. That's for 'greatness'. As far as being 'good', I haven't seen a more impactful player. But I won't be comparing across eras other than saying he is playing no worse than anybody else that ever played. You can argue maybe 10 players in that group but that's stretching it. More like 6-8.

[tpols]

It's actually pretty crazy how guys like Shaq and Hakeem were doubled and even tripled so much and only averaged 3 dimes a game. Jokic averages 3-4x that while not being doubled quite as much (a good amount but not as much).

That's what really stands out. And it's not a physical thing it's a mental thing. The guy seems to see things in slow motion. Like how a fly would see a human swatting at it and easily dodge it. Because from their perspective were moving at a relative snail pace. That's Jokic basketball mind. He's physically slow but mentally warp speed.