Jordan's help. Wow.

[3ball]

.
[COLOR="White"]..................................................[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]All Star Teammates[/COLOR]


All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[COLOR="Indigo"]8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[COLOR="Indigo"]5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
[COLOR="Green"]4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
[COLOR="Indigo"]6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
[COLOR="DarkRed"]5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
[COLOR="black"]3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals [/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
[COLOR="Red"]1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals[/COLOR]
.

[guy]

You should change your post to "he had help winning a TON of rings".

And that loaded comment about the walk on water. He DID in those series. You know as well as I do they played one of the truly great teams in the 86 (and 87 Celts (before injuries hit them later in the playoffs) and a 59 win Bucks team.



And nope. You could do this with ANY player who's had success with a who they played with over their career, and they'd come off a hell of a lot more impressive than Mike's cast.

I watched almost every game of Mike's career. He CARRIED that s*** regularly. And other than Rodman, he MADE those players what they were.

And quite frankly if Kukoc, BJ, and an ancient Harper are the players near the top of your list in a 14 year career, then GTFO.

Just shows how Mike did more with less than anyone.

When the playoffs came, his stats go way up. No coincidence. Because it was money time. Time to carry the team. And that's his playoff stats went up. Because when the going got tough. Mike upped it, when hardly ANYONE else on the team did.


Listen bro, I love your Wilt posts. And I have Wilt as the greatest center ever. But Mike played with crap relative to other great players.

But what separates Mike from others is he stayed and turned crap into something that was functional. AND he turned it up like NO ONE EVER DID when it mattered in the playoffs.

This. and yes somehow Grant, Oakley, BJ, Kukoc, Harper are all time great help but mentioning Rice, Malone, Payton, MWP, Odom, Bynum, or Howard for Kobe or Z, Hughes, Shaq, Jamison, Mo, Allen, or TT for Lebron would cause an uproar to his fans

[BIZARRO]

First of all...

CONTEXT.

Again, the '94 Bulls were an example of the quality of teams in the 90's. Basically without their best player, and with their two remaining stars missing a combined 22 games... a 55-27 record, and realistically a title contender.

The watered down 90's consisted of 60 win teams with maybe two stars. Unlike the 80's, which had STACKED rosters of 3-4- and even 5 HOFers.

And Jordan had his share of flawed performances. He was basically outplayed by Mongrief in their '85 H2H. He choked big time in the clinching game three of the '86 series against the Celtics. In their '87 rematch, against a crumbling Celtic team, he shot .417, which included a 9-35 performance in the clinching (and sweeping) loss. In the '89 ECF's, he QUIT on his team in a game five of a series that was tied 2-2, and ultimately a 4-2 loss.

Oh, and his numbers DECLINED considerably against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And his teammates overcame shooting of .455, .427, and ,415 in his last three Finals.

No one is arguing against his place in NBA history. He is a Top-5 GOAT, and has a case for the GOAT.

BUT, the point of the OP was that, yes, he had a TON of help along the way.

Context. MJ is the only superstar who has a case for GOAT who NEVER played with anyone who demanded a double team.

So combine that with playing against the Bad Boys Pistons D. What he did was absolutely miraculous.

Let me ask you a question. Which I would love to hear you answer.

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?

[game3524]

"Phil Jackson had earned the head coaching job for the Eastern Conference stars and took his coaches along. The game would not be close, but it was instructive. The Bulls' coaches watched Celtics star Reggie Lewis fumble around almost in fear, Rodman virtually unable to make a layup and Brad Daugherty, Kevin Willis,a nd Michael Adams seemingly be overmatched. They talked about icon the way back to the hotel. In Jordan, Pippen, and Horace Grant, they believed they'd perhaps three of the five best players in the conference, and some of their role players seemed more capable than the All-Stars."-Jordan Rules, page 366.

So anyone acting like Chicago wasn't stacked during their championships runs are full of crap or a complete Jordan Stan.

[BIZARRO]

Really?

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ards_1991.html

I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

[game3524]

Really?

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ards_1991.html



I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

They are talking about 1992(That piece came from the Afterword chapter in the Jordan Rules).

And yes, you could make a case that Chicago had 3 of the 5 best players in the conference that year. We all know about MJ and Pippen, but Grant was extremely good in 1992 and should have made the all-star team.

[3ball]

So [COLOR="Red"]anyone[/COLOR] acting like Chicago wasn't stacked during their championships runs are full of crap or a complete Jordan Stan.

Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."[/COLOR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s

Then Costas asked Isiah to respond to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:

[COLOR="Navy"]"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."[/COLOR]

Later in the interview, Costas asked Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah."[/COLOR]

^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - that's how dominant he was.. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).

[LAZERUSS]

Really?

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ards_1991.html

I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

And yet, in the '91 ECF's, when MJ once again had his numbers decline, but this time against a Piston team that was a shell of what they had been the three previous seasons...it was Pippen and Grant coming up huge!

And then in the Finals, when a declining Magic somehow willed his rapidly declining Lakers to a stunning upset of the 63-19 Blazers, and with his supporting cast either injured or washed up...MJ was brilliant. But, so were Pippen and Grant.

Grant's post-season play has been enormously under-rated here. Take a look at what Grant's ORtgs were from '91 thru '96. He was even leading the entire NBA at times.

I find it interesting that there are those that rip Pippen's play in the '90 ECF's, and yet won't acknowledge that because of his play in '91, the Bulls were able to finally overtake a crumbling Piston team.

How important was GRANT in those runs? Take a look at what happened when he LEFT the Bulls. He immediately took a 50-32 Magic team to a 57-25 record, and a trip to the Finals. Oh, and along the way, he BURIED Jordan's Bulls with a massive 18-11 .647 FG% series. Furthermore, had he not been injured in the '96 ECF's, who knows how that series would have gone. As it was, with no Grant, the Bulls put Rodman on SHAQ at critical junctions, and he shut him down. How come no mention of that?

Look, if merely scoring were all that mattered, then how come MJ couldn't lead a team to a playoff win in '87? How come he was repeatedly beaten by the Bad Boys? Well, we all know the answer...he didn't have enough help. BUT, when he had the best supporting cast in the 90's...a cast that could win 55 games without him, and were basically a title-contender, again, withOUT him, they finally won rings.

To his credit, MJ was the key reason. But, let's get real here...without OUTSTANDING supporting casts, he would have never tasted a ring.

[3ball]

.
[COLOR="Red"]Argument for Jordan winning in 2014:[/COLOR]



Dallas and OKC hold Kawhi to 12 ppg on ~45%

[COLOR="navy"]Result: competitive series[/COLOR]

Portland and Heat let Kawhi score 18 ppg on ~57%

[COLOR="Navy"]Result: Massacre [/COLOR]

Clearly, the Spurs were a much better team when Kawhi was a bigger part of the offense.. In the Heat's case, Lebron's poor defense enabled Kawhi to be the best Spur for the first time in the playoffs, which unlocked the Spurs' optimal chemistry (120 ORtg) that we didn't see against other Spurs opponents, even Portland (113 ORtg).

If Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on sub-40% like DAL and OKC did, the Heat would've still lost, but it would've been much closer - now if he adds the offensive aggression [COLOR="Navy"]AS WELL[/COLOR] by doubling his shot attempts like he did in 2015 Finals (which won 2 games with worse supporting cast against better team), the Heat WIN.

So Lebron needed to accomplish 2 things that MJ would've done - don't let a role player be FMVP (hold Kawhi to the same 12 ppg that DAL and OKC did) and be more aggressive offensively like Jordan always was, and like Lebron was in 2015 Finals.. And don't get carried off the floor in Game 1 - it's kind of hard to hold teammates accountable on both sides of the ball after that.






.
[COLOR="Red"]We can all but PROVE Jordan would've won 2007 Finals:[/COLOR]


Game 1 was an eight point game in 4th quarter, despite only 10 points on 5-15 from Lebron.. Games 3 and 4 were nail-biters, despite Lebron's 25 points on 39% and 24 points on 33%, respectively.

Now if Jordan shoots 15-25 percentage points better from the field, [COLOR="Navy"]like all these guys did against the same Spurs team[/COLOR], the Cavs win all three of those games:


Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: [COLOR="Red"]27 ppg on 48%[/COLOR]

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] WCF: [COLOR="Red"]27 ppg on 53%[/COLOR]

Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: [COLOR="Red"]23/12 on 61%[/COLOR]

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] WCF: [COLOR="Red"]29 ppg on 53%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals:[/COLOR][COLOR="blue"] 22 ppg on 35%[/COLOR]



Lebron shot 65.4% at the rim (40% of offense), so his lower overall efficiency compared to his peers was due SPECIFICALLY to his jumpshooting efficiency:


[COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR]Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


[COLOR="White"]....................... [/COLOR]midrange jumpshot FG%[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3-point jumpshot FG%[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals .............[COLOR="red"]14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2[/COLOR]





Since jumpshot efficiency was the key to good overall efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since he was a better midrange shooter than all these guys and frequently relied on his jumpshot to have big games.

Clearly, the Spurs' jumpshooting defense wasn't prohibitive, since everyone shot well on jumpshots, EXCEPT Lebron - Lebron simply can't shoot..




[COLOR="Red"]An argument for Jordan winning 2015 Finals[/COLOR]


Once again, two things would've gotten the job done

1) don't let role player be FMVP

2) don't shoot 39% against no double-teams and constant clearouts

2015 is the easiest argument to make





Playoffs Per Game

JORDAN 1991: 31.1 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg
LEBRON 2015: 30.1 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 8.5 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 1.1 bpg.. 41.7 fg.. 48.7 ts.. 105 ORtg


[COLOR="blue"]Now let's take pace and playing time out of the equation and look at PER POSSESSION:[/COLOR]


Playoffs Per 100 Possessions

JORDAN 1991: 41.8 pts... 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.2 tov.. 3.2 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 52.4 fg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg
LEBRON 2015: 37.7 pts.. 14.2 reb.. 10.6 ast.. 5.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 41.7 fg.. 48.7 ts.. 105 ORtg


Other than defensive rebounds, MJ was superior across the board in every single category.

MJ guarded Magic Johnson (top 5 all-time player who was runner-up for MVP in 1991) and thoroughly outplayed him on the biggest stage, while Lebron defended a role player and let him get FMVP.

MJ also had a massive efficiency advantage across the board (11 points in FG & TS, and 22 points in ORtg)... Of course, we know for a fact that Lebron's poor efficiency was due to his horrific midrange percentage (32%) and overall jumpshooting outside of 5 feet (29%).

Jordan had MORE help in his '87 first round series vs. Celtics (Oakley averaged 20 ppg vs. Celtics)

MJ had far less help - just look the rosters man-for-man.. The difference is that MJ elevated teammates like Oakley in the playoffs (14 ppg in RS to 20 ppg vs. Celtics), while Lebron doesn't - the story is always how Lebron's teammates underperformed, yet again.. It's like clockwork..

At the higher level of competition (playoffs), Lebron's teams no longer get away with the poor chemistry fostered by his ball-dominant, playground style.. Otoh, MJ's sheer force of will and off-ball style is ideally-suited to elevate teammates once the competition kicks up a tier in the playoffs - MJ routinely elevated teammates, while Lebron doesn't.

The 1987 First Round is the perfect example of MJ's superior ability to get the most out of teammates.. The Celtics had a 119 ORtg in that series (nearly the same as Spurs 120 ORtg in 2014 Finals) - the Bulls couldn't stop the Celtics' experienced offense, so the only hope was to outscore them..

MJ did his best to keep the Bulls' offense in the game by using the incessant double-teams to enhance Oakley from a 14 ppg play-finisher (in RS) to a 20 ppg play-finisher vs. Celtics... Consequently, the Bulls had a 109 ORtg vs. the Celtics, which was enough to make each game competitive (losses of 4 pts, 11 pts, 9 pts).

If only Lebron had shown MJ's level of aggression in the 2014 Finals, so he could command the same double-teams and turn the talented Bosh into a superstar.. MJ surely would have, since he enhanced the far less-talented Oakley from a 14 ppg play-finisher into a 20 ppg play-finisher... Btw, Lebron was blown away by 14 ppg in 2014 Finals with a far superior supporting cast (including 20 ppg blowouts the final three games), while MJ only lost by 8 ppg in his three games vs. Celtics, despite a monumentally worse cast.

This is an incredible feat, and it shows how MJ elevated the play-finishing Oakley, just like he molded Pippen into the player the Bulls needed, Kerr (who had been waived by Orlando before joining Bulls), Paxson (who was nothing before Jordan's presence made him a recognizable name), and on and on and on down the list.. Unlike Lebron, where the story is ALWAYS how his teammates underperformed, Jordans' teammates excelled and thrived alongside him.

[tmacattack33]

Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."[/COLOR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s

Then Costas asked Isiah to respond to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:

[COLOR="Navy"]"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."[/COLOR]

Later in the interview, Costas asked Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah."[/COLOR]

^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - that's how dominant he was.. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).

MJ is the Goat but comments from a current player are not such a great indication as you think.

1. Players are players...not scouts or gms or coaches...being a great player says nothing about your ability to analyze the game (MJ picked some terrible players with Washington's high draft picks)

2. Current players may have biases for or against other players, and can be biased for their era vs past eras (MJ himself does this)

3. The guy might just be trying to make himself look like a cool and humble dude in front of millions (KD does this currently...Lebron used to do it)

4. They'll get wrapped up in the moment and just try to make their comment front page newsworthy (just look at all the comments about Kobe from other players right after he decided to make this year his last year)

[Euroleague]

The second 3 peat Bulls teams would probably win 75 games every year now. Anyone that thinks those teams were not stacked like crazy is freaking insane.

[3ball]

The second 3 peat Bulls teams would probably win 75 games every year now. Anyone that thinks those teams were not stacked like crazy is freaking insane.

[COLOR="Red"]1996 Bulls weren't stacked, but Celtics and Lakers were:[/COLOR]


.
[COLOR="White"]..............................[/COLOR]Playoff PPG


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 96' Bulls[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR] 86' Celtics[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR]87' Lakers

Jordan[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 30.7[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Bird[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 25.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 23.6
Pippen[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 16.9[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] McHale[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 24.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 21.8
Kukoc[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 10.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] DJ[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 16.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Kareem[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 19.2
Longley[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.4[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Ainge[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 15.6[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] B Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 14.8
Harper[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 8.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Parish[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 15.0[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] M Cooper[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 13.0
Rodman[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 7.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Walton[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 7.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] AC Green[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 11.5
S Kerr[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.8[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] Sichting[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Thompson[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.8


There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.

[Euroleague]

[COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Black"]1996 Bulls weren't stacked[/COLOR], but Celtics and Lakers were:[/COLOR]


.
[COLOR="White"]..............................[/COLOR]Playoff PPG


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 96' Bulls[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR] 86' Celtics[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR]87' Lakers

Jordan[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 30.7[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Bird[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 25.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 23.6
Pippen[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 16.9[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] McHale[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 24.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 21.8
Kukoc[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 10.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] DJ[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 16.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Kareem[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 19.2
Longley[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.4[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Ainge[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 15.6[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] B Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 14.8
Harper[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 8.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Parish[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 15.0[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] M Cooper[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 13.0
Rodman[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 7.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Walton[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 7.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] AC Green[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 11.5
S Kerr[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.8[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] Sichting[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Thompson[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.8


There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.

[feyki]

[3ball]

Pippen wasn't THAT easily replaced, but he was a worse 2nd option and replaceable by all these guys:


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (nearly every year)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
David Robinson or Duncan (1998)
Stockton (every year)
Shawn Kemp (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


Even if you disagree with 1 or 2 here and there - most of them are valid - Pippen simply wasn't a top 10 second option..

But I will concede that there were far more 3rd options better than Horace (nearly half the league's 3rd options were better), and ditto for 4th options - there were a super ton of 4th options better than BJ Armstrong (i.e. Byron Scott/Michael Cooper/AC Green... Ray Allen... Dennis Johnson... Manu or Kawhi).

The reason MJ still won 6 rings despite having a 2nd option that wasn't top 10, and 3rd/4th options that were pedestrian, is because Jordan scored a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone ever has, including at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their CAREERS (except two, when MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. He also scored 50% of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while he was on the floor).

In addition to his goat scoring and clutch, MJ also led his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage for both 3-peats)..

[COLOR="darkred"]No other player in history was required to score 10 more ppg than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers, AND lead the team in passing.[/COLOR]