1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[RRR3]

Pippen was never better than Ewing yet he's usually ranked higher on the GOAT list. Interdasting.

[Soundwave]

What did Robinson's and Shaq's teams do in the playoffs? What did those players do in those series respectively? You can't jump up and down about a (razor thin) 2nd round loss and then advocate for 1st round upsets. #badfaith23 How about formulating some real arguments?

Ewing was outplayed by Derek Harper and John Starks in a NBA finals due to his own meltdown (that defense was nowhere to be seen as Hakeem roasted him). This is the real MVP?

What difference does it make? It's not like Pippen did anything special in the playoffs, his playoff highlight that season was getting yelled at on the bench by Cartwright as Kukoc kept the Bulls alive in the 2nd round.

I'm not saying Ewing was the MVP, I'm saying he was better than Pippen that year, which is true. His team had a better record, beat Pippen's team head to head, he had better numbers than Pippen, and had an actual real chance at an NBA title, not an imaginary one.

You're going to say with a straight face Pippen was better than Shaq who average 29.3 + 13+ rpg on 60% FG, something Kareem or Wilt couldn't even do in their careers?

If we're going to do that then lets not even worry about things like regular season records or stats at all and just give away MVP participation trophies based on who has the most "feel good" narrative.

[Roundball_Rock]

What difference does it make?

#Badfaith--now playoff performances suddenly don't matter.

I'm not saying Ewing was the MVP, I'm saying he was better than Pippen that year, which is true

In Jordanstan, sure, but in Jordanstan Kemp, Mourning, Miller, and basically every 90's star is better than Pippen so it's a meaningless statement.

The indicia we have of what people thought about the two players' seasons are the following:

MVP: Pippen 3rd, Ewing 5th
All-NBA: Pippen 1st, Ewing nothing
All-NBA voting: Pippen 1st overall (94-68 over Malone at F); Ewing N/A since his vote total wasn't relevant enough to report.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was never better than Ewing yet he's usually ranked higher on the GOAT list. Interdasting.

That is the big media conspiracy to push Pippen after the fact. Pippen is the media darling--look at how the media pushes him daily.

What you really need to look at is how they were perceived back then. Look at all the articles Pippen detractors/MJ stans produce to show how poorly Pippen in fact was perceived back then.

Pippen in articles being called the 2nd best player in the NBA dating from 1992 to as late as 1998. Getting compared favorably to MJ . Where are the corresponding articles for Ewing, Kemp, Miller, and the MJ stan 90's player du jour? These guys were on another galaxy than Pippen, right?

Re all-time, the argument they make is, as usual, contradictory: they will say Pippen is where he is all-time because he played with MJ but he should not be where he is all-time...wait for it...wait...because he played with MJ (being a 2nd option disqualifies him).

It is sad to see them like this. They used to be a lot sharper, coherent years ago before the LeBron specter appeared.

[Smoke117]

He probably would have been if he didn't miss those 10 games with a sprained ankle early in the season. The team went 4-6 during that time. If they had just gone 6-4 or better while he was playing the Bulls would have had the same or a better record than they did in 93 and he would have definitely been voted MVP. Horace Grant also missed 12 games himself, though, I dunno what their record was when he was out. I just think it's worth noting considering both played 81 (pippen, despite having an ankle sprain a good 1/3rd of the season...that's why his numbers took a hit compared to the year prior) and Grant 77 games in 93 when they won 57 games.

[Soundwave]

#Badfaith--now playoff performances suddenly don't matter.



In Jordanstan, sure, but in Jordanstan Kemp, Mourning, Miller, and basically every 90's star is better than Pippen so it's a meaningless statement.

The indicia we have of what people thought about the two players' seasons are the following:

MVP: Pippen 3rd, Ewing 5th
All-NBA: Pippen 1st, Ewing nothing
All-NBA voting: Pippen 1st overall (94-68 over Malone at F); Ewing N/A since his vote total wasn't relevant enough to report.

No not in "Jordanstan" In "reality land", if Kevin Durant had better statistics than Giannis, had a team with a better record than Giannis, had a team with either the no.1 in the major category of D or offensive in the NBA whereas Giannis' team was no.1 in neither category, and beat Giannis head to head while outplaying him in said playoff series ... what f**king arguement is there really that Giannis is somehow the better player?

If that were to happen today, everyone and their grandma would say Durant is better (or insert any two players you want into that scenario). You can't have worse stats than another player, a worse team record, lose in the playoffs to said player while being outplayed by that player and somehow luck into being considered better in virtually any other case.

This is a narrative going over actual reality on the court. Pippen was a better media story that year than Ewing, but that's about it.

Patrick Ewing was better than Scottie Pippen that year, beat him in the playoffs while outplaying him soundly and was better than Pippen every year of the 80s or 90s for that matter.

If you put Ewing on the Bulls in place of Pippen they win the title in 1990 and 1995 on top of the six other rings. Maybe even 1989 as well.

[RRR3]

94 BPM

Pippen 7.7
Ewing 5.2


No case doe

[Roundball_Rock]

"Jordanstan" In "reality land", if Kevin Durant had better statistics than Giannis

This guy is really analogizing Ewing to KD...

94 BPM

Pippen 7.7
Ewing 5.2

No case doe

VORP: Pippen 6.8, Ewing 5.5 (Pippen in 72 games, Ewing in 79)
PER: Pippen 23.2, Ewing 22.9

No case. Ewing was better than Pippen every year of his life, including his peak years. Somehow the inferior player is 10-15 spots ahead of the other guy all-time despite never being better (you can't argue longevity either--Ewing had slightly better longevity). Here are more stats (nearly a clean sweep for Pippen, the one category Ewing is ahead in is close--Ewing 108th and Pippen 110th):





Focus on 1994 in these.

Pippen:



Ewing:



They aren't even close for the season in question.

[Soundwave]

94 BPM

Pippen 7.7
Ewing 5.2


No case doe

The thing is no one gave Ewing even the time of day for MVP voting that year despite the fact that he had a better team record than Pippen, better individual stats than Pippen, led the Knicks to a better team defence than Pippen, and then beat Pippen in the playoffs while outplaying him in that series to boot.

So how the f**k then is Pippen somehow moving to the head of the line past not only Ewing, but Shaq too who was doing things Wilt and Kareem couldn't even do that year, lol. He wasn't one of the 4 best players in the league that year.

He was the best media story of the 4 ... but actual better player ... nah.

[Roundball_Rock]

He probably would have been if he didn't miss those 10 games with a sprained ankle early in the season. The team went 4-6 during that time. If they had just gone 6-4 or better while he was playing the Bulls would have had the same or a better record than they did in 93 and he would have definitely been voted MVP. Horace Grant also missed 12 games himself, though, I dunno what their record was when he was out. I just think it's worth noting considering both played 81 (pippen, despite having an ankle sprain a good 1/3rd of the season...that's why his numbers took a hit compared to the year prior) and Grant 77 games in 93 when they won 57 games.

Listen to their argument: the Knicks with a full deck won 57 games, the Bulls with MJ bouncing in October and more injuries won 55. Therefore, Ewing was more valuable than Pippen. Any fair reading of these facts would conclude the Bulls winning 55 under those conditions was a lot tougher than the Knicks winning 57. (Plus the "57 versus 55" thing obscures they went 56-25 and 55-26 in the 81 games that actually mattered.)

For you to reach the Jordan stan conclusion, you must believe MJ was not valuable so winning 55 without him was no big deal. It isn't as if he was important. MJ or Myers. Same difference, right? These are the same people who say MJ>>>>KAJ/LeBron/Wilt/XYZ.

Bulls with Pippen: 51-21 (58 win pace)
Knicks with Ewing: 56-23 (58 win pace)

Ewing is light years better but his team with Starks, Oakley, Mason, Smith all there (Doc got hurt but they signed Derek Harper to replace him) did the same as a Bulls team riddled with injuries and Pete Myers starting when he and Pippen actually played?

Yeah, Pippen and Grant were iron men up to that point. Just terrible timing, although part of Grant's thing was the "blue flu" due to his beef with Reinsdorf.

[RRR3]

The thing is no one gave Ewing even the time of day for MVP voting that year despite the fact that he had a better team record than Pippen, better individual stats than Pippen, led the Knicks to a better team defence than Pippen, and then beat Pippen in the playoffs while outplaying him in that series to boot.

So how the f**k then is Pippen somehow moving to the head of the line past not only Ewing, but Shaq too who was doing things Wilt and Kareem couldn't even do, lol. He wasn't one of the 4 best players in the league that year.

What are you going by, PPG and RPG? Pippen was significantly better in BPM, which is a far better measure. I like how you said Ewing was better every year in the 90's when Pippen was CLEARLY better in 1996.

1996 stats

Pippen: 19.4/6.4/5.9/1.7/0.7 with 2.7 TOPG (turnovers per game) on .463/.374/.679 shooting. 21.0 PER, 52.5 EFG%, 55.1 TS%, .209 WS/48, 6.3 BPM, 5.9 VORP. All-Star, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, 5th in MVP voting.

Ewing: 22.5/10.6/2.1/0.9/2.4 with 2.9 TOPG on .466/.143/.761 shooting. 20.9 PER, 46.7 EFG%, 51.6 TS%, .116 WS/48, 1.6 BPM, 2.5 VORP. All-Star, did not make an All-NBA team or an All-Defensive Team and did not receive a single vote for MVP.



Please tell me how Ewing was better that year

[Roundball_Rock]

The only stat they ever go by:

[RRR3]

The only stat they ever go by:

Ewing took 3.4 more shots per game to score 3.1 more points per game so he was better

[Roundball_Rock]

Ewing took 3.4 more shots per game to score 3.1 more points per game so he was better

Yup!

It is bizarre. You could argue Ewing was better career wise or peak versus peak but they are contesting literally Pippen's peak years of 1994-1996. Their accolades tell the tale.

1994

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 390 MVP votes, 7 first place votes (3rd in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 255 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (5th in MVP)

1995

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 83 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (7th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 230 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (4th in MVP)

1996

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 226 MVP votes (5th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, no MVP votes (even Rodman and Terrell Brandon got votes)

Pippen was better in 95' and 96' than even these suggest. His MVP voting was dragged down by MJ coming back in 95' (which obscured him leading his team in every category--no stats doe). In 96' his stats were much better 2/3 through the season before he started having injury problems. If he stayed healthy he probably finishes 3rd. At any rate, if a "sidekick" is top 5 in MVP that is rare and speaks volumes.

1994-1996 VORP: Pippen 19.9, Ewing 12.1
1994-1996 BPM: Pippen 7.2, Ewing 3.5
1994-1996 PER: Pippen 22.2, Ewing 21.9
1994-1996 WS: Pippen 35.3, Ewing 29.4
1994-1996 TS %: Pippen 55.1%, Ewing 54.1% (a center lower?!)

How about covering 1992-1997? Both players were at an all-NBA level at the front and back end of this time frame.

1992-1997 VORP: Pippen 37.1, Ewing 25.1
1992-1997 BPM: Pippen 6.2, Ewing 3.6
1992-1997 PER: Ewing 21.8, Pippen 21.4
1992-1997 WS: Pippen 69.6, Ewing 62.8
1992-1997 TS %: Ewing 54.7%, Pippen 54.6%

Pippen has the clear edge again. When Pippen is ahead it is by a lot; when Ewing is ahead he noses ahead.

Keep in mind Pippen's stats were deflated by playing with MJ. It is no coincidence his two best statistical years were 1994 and 1995. Ewing, though, played in a context designed to maximize his stats.

[Round Mound]

Yup!

It is bizarre. You could argue Ewing was better career wise or peak versus peak but they are contesting literally Pippen's peak years of 1994-1996. Their accolades tell the tale.

1994

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 390 MVP votes, 7 first place votes (3rd in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 255 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (5th in MVP)

1995

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 83 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (7th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 230 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (4th in MVP)

1996

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 226 MVP votes (5th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, no MVP votes (even Rodman and Terrell Brandon got votes)

Pippen was better in 95' and 96' than even these suggest. His MVP voting was dragged down by MJ coming back in 95' (which obscured him leading his team in every category--no stats doe). In 96' his stats were much better 2/3 through the season before he started having injury problems. If he stayed healthy he probably finishes 3rd. At any rate, if a "sidekick" is top 5 in MVP that is rare and speaks volumes.

1994-1996 VORP: Pippen 19.9, Ewing 12.1
1994-1996 BPM: Pippen 7.2, Ewing 3.5
1994-1996 PER: Pippen 22.2, Ewing 21.9
1994-1996 WS: Pippen 35.3, Ewing 29.4
1994-1996 TS %: Pippen 55.1%, Ewing 54.1% (a center lower?!)

How about covering 1992-1997? Both players were at an all-NBA level at the front and back end of this time frame.

1992-1997 VORP: Pippen 37.1, Ewing 25.1
1992-1997 BPM: Pippen 6.2, Ewing 3.6
1992-1997 PER: Ewing 21.8, Pippen 21.4
1992-1997 WS: Pippen 69.6, Ewing 62.8
1992-1997 TS %: Ewing 54.7%, Pippen 54.6%

Pippen has the clear edge again. When Pippen is ahead it is by a lot; when Ewing is ahead he noses ahead.

Keep in mind Pippen's stats were deflated by playing with MJ. It is no coincidence his two best statistical years were 1994 and 1995. Ewing, though, played in a context designed to maximize his stats.