1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[RRR3]

Ewing was the greatest player of all time according to Tpols.

[RRR3]

When i compared efficiency it was for massive sample sizes between players whose games were apple to apple.

not to mention ewing totally schooled scottie efficiency wise head to head in the very year were talking about.... in the playoffs.

you fellas are just too easy.

I'm actually digging this new Ewing is GOAT shtick. We need stans of different players. LeBron, Kobe, MJ stans are boring. A Patrick Ewing is GOAT agenda, though? Now that's original.

[tpols]

You dont need to be GOAT to beat Lebron.

Dwight did it and is barely top 50.

[Roundball_Rock]

It was Pippen and LeBron's fault. Even though Pippen was at home watching and LeBron was a little kid. They somehow were responsible for making the GOAT god Ewing miss so many shots.

That nefarious LeBron! Rigging MVP and all-NBA voting when he was in elementary and middle school wasn't enough--he had to sabotage Ewing too.

Pippen deserves legitimate blame. After all, per certain stans on ISH, Ewing's defining series was beating a Bulls team with Pete Myers in place of MJ (barely--thanks to Hue Hollins). After he climbed that mountain top, what else mattered after that? So of course he took the foot off the gas then. He understood his legacy was assured and no one would care if he melted down in the finals.

When i compared efficiency it was for massive sample sizes between players whose games were apple to apple.

not to mention ewing totally schooled scottie efficiency wise

I watched Ewing play. There is nothing "apple to apple" between a perimeter SF and Ewing. Hakeem, Mourning are "apple to apple". Where are the playoff numbers for those series?

A Patrick Ewing is GOAT agenda, though? Now that's original.

Would he take Ewing over MJ, though? When push comes to shove, these "Ewing fans" will always wind up back with their true love MJ.

[RRR3]

You dont need to be GOAT to beat Lebron.

Dwight did it and is barely top 50.

Dwight "held" LeBron to 38.5 PPG on 59.1 TS%, so it's a weird stance to act like his defense was affecting LeBron in that series. Obviously there were other factors at play. Maybe Ewing would be able to hold LeBron to 35 PPG...

[tpols]

i mean... hakeem was obviously better than ewing. just quicker and more skilled.

but pippen was easy work for him sans jordan.

and that's the point.

[RRR3]

i mean... hakeem was obviously better than ewing. just quicker and more skilled.

but pippen was easy work for him sans jordan.

and that's the point.

Are you under the impression the best players on each team just play 1 on 1 to determine which team wins? Because you post like it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's throw Smits in there too.

Ewing vs. Hakeem

1994 Finals:

Hakeem 27/9/4 56% TS
Ewing 19/12/2 39% TS

Ewing vs. Mourning

1997 ECSF:

Ewing 24/12/1 52% TS
Mourning 19/9/1 50% TS

1999 1st round:

Ewing 15/11/1 48% TS
Mourning 22/8/1 57% TS

Ewing past his prime by 99' but Knicks blow a 3-1 lead in 97'.

Ewing vs. Smits

1993 1st round:

Ewing 24/11/1 51% TS
Smits 23/8/2 61% TS

1994 ECF:

Ewing 22/11/3 54% TS
Smits 16/6/1 55% TS

1995 ECSF (the "finger roll" series):

Ewing 19/9/3 53% TS
Smits 23/6/1 65% TS

So Hakeem crushed Ewing in their one meeting, the year Ewing was MVP (and Hakeem, and Shaq, and Robinson, and Kemp, and Malone--everybody but Pippen).

Mourning and Ewing split those series, Ewing winning when still elite.

Smits, nominally Indiana's #2 option, actually outplayed the GOAT Ewing in Ewing's prime in 2 of 3 series. Maybe Smits should have won some MVP's?

Are you under the impression the best players on each team just play 1 on 1 to determine which team wins? Because you post like it.

Yup.

[tpols]

not at all. But the teams were of similar strength and Ewing clearly outplayed "MVP" pippen in that series.

in the words of nasir, it aint hard to tell.



Listen to that bro and free your mind. All time classic.

Released in 1994 NYC.

[RRR3]

Outplayed by Rik Smits twice in a playoff series but he's better than LeBron James


Inb4 tpols tells us Rik Smits was a superstar

[RRR3]

I've already heard that album.

[RRR3]

I still can't believe Rik friggin' Smits shat on prime Ewing in two different series

[Smoke117]

Yup!

It is bizarre. You could argue Ewing was better career wise or peak versus peak but they are contesting literally Pippen's peak years of 1994-1996. Their accolades tell the tale.

1994

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 390 MVP votes, 7 first place votes (3rd in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 255 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (5th in MVP)

1995

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 83 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (7th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 230 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (4th in MVP)

1996

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 226 MVP votes (5th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, no MVP votes (even Rodman and Terrell Brandon got votes)

Pippen was better in 95' and 96' than even these suggest. His MVP voting was dragged down by MJ coming back in 95' (which obscured him leading his team in every category--no stats doe). In 96' his stats were much better 2/3 through the season before he started having injury problems. If he stayed healthy he probably finishes 3rd. At any rate, if a "sidekick" is top 5 in MVP that is rare and speaks volumes.

1994-1996 VORP: Pippen 19.9, Ewing 12.1
1994-1996 BPM: Pippen 7.2, Ewing 3.5
1994-1996 PER: Pippen 22.2, Ewing 21.9
1994-1996 WS: Pippen 35.3, Ewing 29.4
1994-1996 TS %: Pippen 55.1%, Ewing 54.1% (a center lower?!)

How about covering 1992-1997? Both players were at an all-NBA level at the front and back end of this time frame.

1992-1997 VORP: Pippen 37.1, Ewing 25.1
1992-1997 BPM: Pippen 6.2, Ewing 3.6
1992-1997 PER: Ewing 21.8, Pippen 21.4
1992-1997 WS: Pippen 69.6, Ewing 62.8
1992-1997 TS %: Ewing 54.7%, Pippen 54.6%

Pippen has the clear edge again. When Pippen is ahead it is by a lot; when Ewing is ahead he noses ahead.

Keep in mind Pippen's stats were deflated by playing with MJ. It is no coincidence his two best statistical years were 1994 and 1995. Ewing, though, played in a context designed to maximize his stats.

94-97 Pippen was the only player unanimiously chosen first team all defense by every single coach. The ONLY player chosen first team all defense BY EVERY OPPOSING COACH. No other player has ever had that accolade. He was even voted first team all defensive team despite only playing half the season in 98, even. lol

[Soundwave]

How often does the supposed "MVP" get outplayed head to head and outsted in the playoffs by the 5th (?) best player then on comparably talented squads?

If Pippen was so much better than Ewing (or at all), explain Ewing beating him in the playoffs and outplaying him head to head in said playoff round.

When does that happen to other MVPs?

You can't have it both ways either and laugh at the Knicks in other threads for being a weak squad and having Starks as the no.2 option, and now try and weasel that back by saying "bu bu bu but Oakley, Harper!" because you're on the losing end of this argument. Especially when Toni Kukoc is the only reason the series was even competitive.

If Ewing isn't that great, what does it say then that he outplayed and beat Pippen head to head in the playoffs.

In 1995, another playoff oppurtunity where Pippen could have showed himself to be a top end player with Jordan clearly being rusty Pippen basically got outplayed by Horace Grant and to evens with Penny Hardaway.

Again how often does this happen to supposed MVP caliber players?

[Roundball_Rock]

Dwight "held" LeBron to 38.5 PPG on 59.1 TS%, so it's a weird stance to act like his defense was affecting LeBron in that series. Obviously there were other factors at play. Maybe Ewing would be able to hold LeBron to 35 PPG...

To be fair, Dwight played lockdown defense on LeBron. LeBron couldn't get past Dwight. Remember Dwight picking LeBron up at half court and shadowing him?

Outplayed by Rik Smits twice in a playoff series but he's better than LeBron James

Including in a series where his team committed the cardinal sin: winning 55 games and losing in 7 in the ECSF. Except he was actually outplayed by his match up (Pippen's match up went 8/3 or something) and missed the series winning finger roll.

94-97 Pippen was the only player unanimiously chosen first team all defense by every single coach. The ONLY player chosen first team all defense BY EVERY OPPOSING COACH. No other player has ever had that accolade. He was even voted first team all defensive team despite only playing half the season in 98, even. lol

Let's recap some of the bad faith arguments Pippen haters/MJ stans advanced:

*Playoff efficiency is king, therefore Pippen must suck but less efficient players like Robinson and Ewing (despite being centers) are better than him. Efficiency is irrelevant to them. It only counts for Pippen.
*Pippen can't be MVP because his team lost in the 2nd round--but Robinson and Shaq can be despite losing in the first round to lower seeds (Shaq actually swept). Robinson choking his way from 30 PPG on 58% TS to 20 PPG on 47%? Doesn't matter. Playoff results only count for Pippen. Why did he go from 22 PPG on 54% TS to 23 PPG on 52% TS in the playoffs?
*Pippen can't be MVP because of the Bulls' offense, even though it was better than the Rockets and Knicks' offense. Offense doesn't count for Hakeem and Ewing, only Pippen.
*Ewing>Pippen because the Knicks with a full deck won 57 games and the Bulls losing MJ won 55. The Knicks losing 3 games losing nobody>the Bulls declining 2 games losing the guy all these posters swear is GOAT at his peak.
*Pippen can't be MVP because the Bulls lost their division, but Robinson and Shaq can be despite losing theirs.
*Shawn Kemp, the second option on his team, deserved more MVP votes than Pippen.
*Ewing was MVP because he anchored the #1 defense--but the quality of that defense is irrelevant to Pippen's ECSF. Why didn't Pippen match MJ's great efficiency against the Knicks the previous year (spoiler: he was more efficient)?
*Karl Malone, on the 5th seed, deserved it over Pippen. 53 wins adding Hornacek>55 wins losing MJ.
*55 wins isn't enough to be MVP, but 56 because your team added Rodman or even 50 adding Penny is enough for other players. Or 57 or 58. Just don't give me "55."
*Because the Bulls sucked without Pippen and that reduced their win total, that is strong evidence Pippen was not valuable.
*Because the Bulls' offense sucked without Pippen and that reduced their season long offensive rank (still better than NY and HOU ), that is evidence of Pippen not being valuable.


Did I miss any? These are the flat out bad faith arguments. I'm not even getting to the bad ones, like Pippen was a scrub but somehow was #1 in all-NBA and crushing prime Malone in first team forward voting.