1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[Rico2016]

Because some of them get placed there due to team accomplishments and not actual abiility.

Please tell me which ones you are referring to...

[Reggie43]

Lol Kemp never at any point led a team to 60+ wins you dipshit, moron ****ing goof. Your stupidity sucking off Reggie has made you half retarded ****stick.

It was all Payton then? Was he the clear cut leader and best player? Who do you think teams gameplanned for when facing the sonics? Who was the best player for the Sonics on the Finals?

Guess your on the bottle again or forgot your meds so you get triggered easily

[Bawkish]

Phil's instinct to let Kukoc to take the last shot saved Pip's ass in that series

If he somehow missed that shot, Pip's rep would be in tatters

[Reggie43]

Please tell me which ones you are referring to...

I'll give you a hint, most of them are clear cut second options.

[Smoke117]

I’m pretty sure this goof retard Reggie43 thinks Reggie Miller is greater than Scottie Pippen...the dumb stupid mutt that he is...

[Reggie43]

I’m pretty sure this goof retard Reggie43 thinks Reggie Miller is greater than Scottie a Pippen...the dumb stupid mutt that he is...��

Quote me where I said it? The only thing youll find is where I said the opposite actually.

Dumb stupid mutt got caught lying thus the meltdowns against me

Word of advice use facts to prove a point and dont invent stuff that never happened, that shit gets easily exposed nowadays with internet and all.

[Reggie43]

On that note, Mutombo didn't even defend Robinson and Hakeem one on one. The PF always did because his feet were too damn slow to play any kind of decent defense on them.

*Videos show Deke defending both players single coverage with hardly any double teams.

Smoke117 at his best

[Roundball_Rock]

I’m pretty sure this goof retard Reggie43 thinks Reggie Miller is greater than Scottie Pippen...the dumb stupid mutt that he is...

He does. One of the many amusing things is they wildly diverge from the consensus (real, not Fantasy Island) on Pippen but then will call us biased,. delusional, etc. for being consistent with the consensus. Pippen is top 20-30 all-time by consensus. That is a fact. Show me an all-time list that has him outside that range. Show me where Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Horace Grant, etc. are on the same lists. According to MJ stans, literally every 90's superstar or star was better than Pippen. Even guys like Kemp and Miller. Now we are hearing Horace Grant (who outplayed Penny, who MJ stans adore, in the same series). At least MJ stans finally are giving Grant some credit. A player better than Penny (per their own logic here) as #3? #stacked


Re the MJ stan stuff, it is these people who by their own admission connect Pippen to MJ. They view him solely through the lens of MJ. Yet they swear they aren't MJ stans?

Of course we aren't allowed to make a case. Woah says if you push back against MJ stans you should be banned. What a useful idiot for MJ stans. Give them free reign to deceive younger posters.

Another myth posed above. If Kukoc misses it goes to OT. The deception never ends.

[Reggie43]

He does. One of the many amusing things is they wildly diverge from the consensus (real, not Fantasy Island) on Pippen but then will call us biased,. delusional, etc. for being consistent with the consensus. Pippen is top 20-30 all-time by consensus. That is a fact. Show me an all-time list that has him outside that range. Show me where Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Horace Grant, etc. are on the same lists.


Re the MJ stan stuff, it is these people who by their own admission connect Pippen to MJ. They view him solely through the lens of MJ. Yet they swear they aren't MJ stans?

Of course we aren't allowed to make a case. Woah says if you push back against MJ stans you should be banned. What a useful idiot for MJ stans. Give them free reign to deceive younger posters.

Another myth posed above. If Kukoc misses it goes to OT. The deception never ends.

Tell me again how Pippens baggage affect his value as a player? Oh wait you never answered this and avoided it like the plague

Imagine a top 30 player fresh off 6 rings getting traded for Roy freakin Rogers because of the aforementioned baggage

[Marchesk]

Show me where Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Horace Grant, etc. are on the same lists.

It's not clear at all to me that Pippen was better than Ewing and Drexler or even Payton. If we removed the six finals, does Pippen still get the consensus top 30? The ones where Jordan won six FMVPS?

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is where all the 90's players MJ stans bring up vis-a-vis Pippen rank all-time in the three most recent major rankings. I'll throw Simmons' 2009 rankings from his book in too, to give us an idea of how they were perceived a decade ago too.

Pippen: #21 ESPN, #22 Slam, #25 Backpicks, #24 Simmons
Ewing: #37 ESPN, #30 Slam, #28 Backpicks, #40 Simmons
Drexler: #57 ESPN, #43 Drexler Slam, #39 Backpicks, #44 Simmons
Miller: #49 ESPN, #55 Slam, #30 Backpicks, #63 Simmons
Wilkins: #46 ESPN, #41 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #55 Simmons
Worthy: #51 ESPN, #46 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #50 Simmons
Kemp: N/A ESPN, #100 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #88 Simmons
Robinson: #24 ESPN, #29 Slam, #15 Backpicks, #29 Simmons
Payton: #53 ESPN, #39 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #41 Simmons
Stockton: #28 ESPN, #25 Slam, #27 Stockton, #19 Stockton

Pippen actually has the most consensus. The others all have one outlier ranking to their name. Pippen is in a tight range. The Pippen debate exists only in a very special place known as Jordanstan where Pippen is #2 all-time--#2 WOAT, ahead of LeBron.

So Pippen was a scrub, equal or lesser than Kemp and Miller--guys who never made first team all-NBA--in Jordanstan but somehow he manages to be ahead of all these guys all-time.

It's not clear at all to me that Pippen was better than Ewing and Drexler or even Payton. If we removed the six finals, does Pippen still get the consensus top 30?

We aren't allowed to discuss this. We can't discuss their resumes. We can't discuss them as players. We can't discuss their stats. We can't discuss how they were perceived at the time. Didn't you get the memo? All is allowed is cherry picking Pippen to say he sucks.

Pippen has been compared to these players at various points on ISH. MJ stans don't engage in the comparison, just respond with more "Pippen sucks" stuff.

You can't apply one set of rules for Pippen and another for every other legend. That isn't how all-time rankings work. If you remove his team success, you have to do the same for each of them. What we often see is "Pippen's rings don't count but Drexler lost two finals as the man, therefore, Drexler>Pippen." That isn't how real history works. That is stanning on ISH.

Plus, if it is all about rings why is Worthy not getting the same boost? Why is Havlicek behind Pippen? How about others with rings? Rodman has 5, no? Where is the "no ring" tax (look at where Stockton is)? Also, take Ewing as an example. We are to ignore he has no ring because he melted down in the finals? So he gets the credit for making a finals but not the demerits for melting down while there?

There is a ranking that by its criteria does not factor in "rings" (which MJ stans suddenly don't think matter for all-time ranking purposes--Pippen, Russell are the few exceptions ) although he does factor in team impact and how well a player could fit on different teams in different roles. Read it yourself (it is called Backpicks--scroll up to their rankings):

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the...n-nba-history/

Let me flip your question. Take team success away from all these players. How do you rank them?

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is a comparison of perimeter players in the 90's from another thread. A Pippen vs. Ewing comparison is somewhere around here in another thread--MJ stans did not respond.

Pippen/Drexler/Stockton/Miller in the 90's

All-NBA: Stockton 8, Pippen 7, Drexler 4, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Stockton 2, Drexler 1, Miller 0
Top 5 in MVP: Pippen 2, Drexler 1, Miller/Stockton 0
Top 10 in MVP: Pippen 5, Drexler/Stockton 3, Miller 0
All-star: Stockton 8, Pippen/Drexler 7, Miller 4
All-D: Pippen 9, Stockton 4, Drexler/Miller 0 (Pippen with 8 all-D 1st teams)

Drexler and Stockton both have a trio of top 10 MVP finishes but they are not the same quality. Drexler's were 2nd, 6th, 10th; Stockton's 8th, 9th, 10th. For the record, Pippen's were 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th.

Career All-NBA 1st Teams

Pippen 3
Payton/Stockton 2
Ewing/Wilkins/Drexler 1
Miller/Worthy/Kemp 0

Any Pippen haters have an explanation for this? The M Jay excuse doesn't fly--2 of those 3 came with MJ retired, implying MJ held his accolades back. All these superior players and they make all-NBA 1st team less than Pippen? Pippen did it over prime Malone, Barkley, Hill (you can throw prime Kemp in too since Pippen haters love him) too. That's tough forward competition, no?

Also, if these players are in the same tier--where is the daily onslaught of "Drexler sucks" or "Ewing is a fraud" or "Payton!" scrutiny? It follows only one player (Jordan's teammate), and we are told there is no agenda attached to it. Just a coincidence! In fact, many of the very people who vehemently denounce Pippen will defend or praise other players for equal or worse things in their resume. Thread to thread, post to post, even sentence to sentence. Why don't Drexler or Payton or Worthy or Wilkins or Ewing get even 5% of that level of hate?

The Pippen hate stuff started long after he retired...and really intensified as Jordan fans felt footsteps from LeBron.

[Marchesk]

Why is Havlicek behind Pippen?

No way in hell Simmons ranked Pippen over Hondo all-time. The only reason others might have done so is recency bias.

[Overdrive]

Here is where all the 90's players MJ stans bring up vis-a-vis Pippen rank all-time in the three most recent major rankings. I'll throw Simmons' 2009 rankings from his book in too, to give us an idea of how they were perceived a decade ago too.

Pippen: #21 ESPN, #22 Slam, #25 Backpicks, #24 Simmons
Ewing: #37 ESPN, #30 Slam, #28 Backpicks, #40 Simmons
Drexler: #57 ESPN, #43 Drexler Slam, #39 Backpicks, #44 Simmons
Miller: #49 ESPN, #55 Slam, #30 Backpicks, #63 Simmons
Wilkins: #46 ESPN, #41 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #55 Simmons
Worthy: #51 ESPN, #46 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #50 Simmons
Kemp: N/A ESPN, #100 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #88 Simmons
Robinson: #24 ESPN, #29 Slam, #15 Backpicks, #29 Simmons
Payton: #53 ESPN, #39 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #41 Simmons
Stockton: #28 ESPN, #25 Slam, #27 Stockton, #19 Stockton

Pippen actually has the most consensus. The others all have one outlier ranking to their name. Pippen is in a tight range. The Pippen debate exists only in a very special place known as Jordanstan where Pippen is #2 all-time--#2 WOAT, ahead of LeBron.

Do you honestly think Pippen, if not traded on draft day*, ends up in the 20-25 range? Those lists are so much based on career trajectory. I think Pippen is a better player than all of them except for David Robinson, but if Jordan gets drafted by the Blazers and they win a few with Drexler, a good all round player in his own right gets more rings his status would very much change. #57 is a joke. How is Drexler lower than fn Reggie Miller on some lists.

Also I think Pippen benefited from the Jordan retirement personally. His worth got accepted way more by fans and pundits and being in the MVP mix was justified, but I doubt he's in the mix for MVP if he plays on the Sonics unless they develop they same way the did without him(balanced team with 60ish win seasons). Then I'd see him win one or two as he would definately be their best player.

*In this scenario of course Jordan would also suffer alot - wanna get that out of the way before discussion ensues.

[Roundball_Rock]

No way in hell Simmons ranked Pippen over Hondo all-time.

He doesn't but everyone else does. The point wasn't Pippen vs. Hondo. The point was Hondo (aka the Pippen of his era) versus Drexler, Ewing, Payton, etc. I guess it is all rings driving him as well, right? Hondo is a great test case: Pippen by another name. As you noted, the only thing holding him back is era bias. Which means he should be around where Pippen is ranked...

Do you honestly think Pippen, if not traded on draft day*, ends up in the 20-25 range?

You are falling into their trap. Why not ask this question of every player? It could go either way but impossible to know. What if Pippen has 10 years of a prime as the best player, wins a MVP, has a couple other MVP contending seasons, and his team wins a ring? I.e., a Dirk-like career trajectory or Wade. Or Harden's if he winds up with a ring like Dirk. Where does he rank then?

if Jordan gets drafted by the Blazers and they win a few with Drexler

Drexler is a good test case. He actually did win a ring and no one even remembers it. Go back to the Drexler threads a few weeks ago. His advocates kept pointing to the two finals he lost. With fans at least, there is an obsession with "options" so losing in the NBA finals or even conference finals as the "#1", even a nominal #1 like Miller>winning rings as a #2.

MJ and Drexler played the same position. How would they mesh? Drexler hit his prime earlier (though he did nothing as a rookie, same as Pippen) than the younger Pippen but the flip side is he started breaking down earlier. So let's suppose Drexler is drafted in 1987 and that they somehow meshed as MJ and Jordan-lite. Both were on the bench as rookies. Pippen became a permanent starter 1/3 through his season year. Drexler started half the games in 88' and 58 in 89'. At any rate, both became all-stars in their third season (which would be 1990). Bulls with Drexler win in 1990, 1991, 1992...and then Drexler starts to decline...

This is where these scenarios get tricky. Drexler in 95' won with a lesser player than MJ--but MJ himself barely won with what by 93' was a better player than Drexler. It shows you it is a team sport. You can't just look at 2 players.

Also I think Pippen benefited from the Jordan retirement personally. His worth got accepted way more by fans and pundits and being in the MVP mix was justified

That's one way to look at it. I agree that he benefited from it because he get proper recognition but the real question isn't the retirement per se but what if he had an entire prime away from MJ versus only 1 4/5 seasons (only 1 playoff run)?

I doubt he's in the mix for MVP if he plays on the Sonics unless they develop they same way the did without him(balanced team with 60ish win seasons). Then I'd see him win one or two as he would definately be their best player.

Yeah, and he would wind up slightly ahead of where he is all-time now in that scenario with a MVP and "rings as the man." The anti-Pippen crowd only looks at downside variance.

There may be value in a ring or two as a "sidekick" but, as Kyrie understood, the value goes away. People don't distinguish between Pippen or Hondo's number and those of Worthy or Gasol or McHale. They all get a modicum of credit but fans give more credit to Ewing, Payton, Miller, Iverson for making *one* finals and losing as the best player.