1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[Reggie43]

He had these types of moves in his arsenal but I guess posters saw too much of "Uncle Reggie" when he was about to retire so he never got credit for it.

[tpols]

Miller had an elite face up game buoyed by a very quick first step that enabled him to shoot his runner, go all the way to the basket or draw fouls. At his peak he was going close to 8 times a game to the line good for 9th in the league and ahead of guys like Olajuwon, Drexler, Dominique etc.

true that. you cant really get to the line that often unless youre a serious scorer... it means youre constantly beating and tricking the defense.

or youre just too damn good and they have to foul you just to throw your rhythm off.

[Overdrive]

Reggie Miller playoff scoring(90 - 95): 34.4 per 100 poss / .628 TS%

Barkley playoff scoring (89 - 95): 32 per 100 poss / .578 TS%

It really isn’t even a given Hakeem was a better scorer in the playoffs. He’s actually worse in all honesty. Only Jordan was on Millers level as an offensive player in the postseason. Then baby Shaq when Miller was out of prime.

You call Miller overrated then proceed to underrate his game. He got 24.6ppg .514 fg% .414 3p% at his peak which very few players has done at those percentages without the help of modern no handcheck freedom of movement rules.

Too dependent on team play to get going? Non pacers fans always mistake playing the right way for the benefit of the team as a limitation to his game not knowing he could go one on one and "dribble fancy" if he wanted to which he did when they had average teams in the early 90s and early 2000s when they broke up their core. There are tons of clips of these on youtube its just that he was the Goat offball player so he decided to focus on his strengths.

The right way for the benefit of the team? If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.

true that. you cant really get to the line that often unless youre a serious scorer... it means youre constantly beating and tricking the defense.

or youre just too damn good and they have to foul you just to throw your rhythm off.

7. Reggie Miller
9 of 16

Easily one of the best three-point shooters ever to step onto an NBA court, Reggie Miller also made quite the career out of flailing his wiry frame around at any given moment.

Having that wiry frame gave Miller the advantage when it came to flopping since he could easily sell someone as skinny as himself getting pushed around by just about anyone.

Miller even revolutionized a different style of flopping by perfecting the leg kick. The leg kick basically involves you going up for a normal jump shot, but then sticking your leg to make contact with the defender nearest to you to get the automatic foul.

Worst instance of flopping: Gus Johnson calls Reggie out

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...in-nba-history

[Reggie43]

The right way for the benefit of the team? If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.





https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...in-nba-history

Maybe because other players on the team need their touches as well to be effective and provide good chemistry for the team. Would Smits be effective if Miller takes away his shots? Or Mark Jackson if he tries those "fancy dribble moves" and take the ball away from him?

Never said he was elite just better than you think he was.

[999Guy]

Raise the pace for more possessions? There’s no advantage to that. You’re never gonna have more possessions than the other team.

[Turbo Slayer]

The right way for the benefit of the team? If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.





https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...in-nba-history

Responding to bolded: I think you mean hand over the ball more. Pace does not factor in plays designed for that specific player. Pace just takes in # of team possessions and # of opponent's possessions in a game of 48 minutes. It is just purely a estimate of # of possessions for a team.

I think you meant usage rate.

Raise the pace for more possessions? There’s no advantage to that. You’re never gonna have more possessions than the other team.

I agree.

[Reggie43]

Is this a player that is too dependent on team play to get going?

Shows his full arsenal with stepbacks, fadeaways, faceup drives runners etc.

[Whoah10115]

Miller wasn't on the very shortlist in the 90s, but that only means the 90s were great.

It's reasonable to take Richmond over him, especially in a vacuum, because Richmond was one of the game's best players.

But Reggie was great. Terrifying to play against, and not just because a little me saw him do something crazy against us.

I saw an older him go off against the Nets, taking it to the rim in OT. Miller can stand against Ray and all the guards of that class.

[Overdrive]

Raise the pace for more possessions? There’s no advantage to that. You’re never gonna have more possessions than the other team.

Responding to bolded: I think you mean hand over the ball more. Pace does not factor in plays designed for that specific player. Pace just takes in # of team possessions and # of opponent's possessions in a game of 48 minutes. It is just purely a estimate of # of possessions for a team.

I think you meant usage rate.

I agree.

No, I did not mean usage rate. I meant possessions. If you have someone so great that he could score alot of points on high efficiency if he had more possessions I'd raise them. Most teams become less effective on more possessions. It's a legitimate strategy and quite some teams thoughout history used it. Raising usage takes away shots from teammates.

[Roundball_Rock]

If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.

Exactly. His team knew he couldn't handle real #1 option usage. He was 21 PPG with 3 APG for his prime. These are not elite numbers. Players with more offensive production get ripped as offensive players (including in this thread) by these Reggie advocates so why are we praising 21/3?

Reggie was a great shooter but that was it. He did not have the skill set to be a real #1 option and he couldn't impact games via passing/creating, defense, rebounding, etc. There is a reason he never finished even top 10 in MVP despite theoretically being the #1 option on a perennial contender.

Raising usage takes away shots from teammates.

Which would mean taking shots away from Rik Smits, Chuck Person, Detlef Schrempf, or Jalen Rose. His team preferred those guys getting higher usage than the supposed all-time great offensive player...but Reggie43 and tpols know better than Larry Brown, Larry Bird, et al.

[999Guy]

No, I did not mean usage rate. I meant possessions. If you have someone so great that he could score alot of points on high efficiency if he had more possessions I'd raise them. Most teams become less effective on more possessions. It's a legitimate strategy and quite some teams thoughout history used it. Raising usage takes away shots from teammates.

No.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do Robinson and Shaq get a pass for going from 30 PPG to 20 PPG and from 29 PPG to 21 PPG, respectively, in the playoffs? Pippen went from 22 PPG to 23 PPG (yes, the guy who scored slightly more is the one getting ripped) and people are jumping up and down about that constituting choking. So playoff production is paramount--but the guys who shrunk to 65% or so of their scoring en route to losing in first round upsets, get a pass? Why is Pippen held to a separate standard by "unbiased" fans who have no agenda regarding him (certainly nothing to do with MJ!)?

Here is the career head-to-head production of players compared here.

Pippen vs. Miller

Pippen 17/6/5 on 49%. 2 steals, 1 block.
Miller 19/3/3 on 45%. 1 steal, 0 blocks.

Bulls 4-1 against the Pacers in 94' so the MJ excuse doesn't work. Pippen's teams 36-12 overall in the RS against Miller's.

Hakeem vs. Ewing

Hakeem 21/11/2 on 50%. 3 blocks, 2 steals.
Ewing 18/9/1 on 46%. 2 blocks, 1 steal.

Hakeem wins across the board. Their teams went 14-14.

Ewing vs. Robinson

Robinson 23/9/3 on 51%. 3 blocks, 2 steals.
Ewing 20/10/2 on 43%. 3 blocks, 1 steal.

Nearly a clean sweep for Robinson but Ewing averaged 1.1 more RPG (Robinson 2.8 BPG versus 2.6 for Ewing).

Ewing vs. Smits

Ewing dominated him in the RS.

Ewing 24/10/2 51%. 3 blocks, 1 steal.
Smits 13/6/1 49%. 1 block, 1 steal.

Playoffs a different story...:

Ewing 19/9/2 46%. 2 blocks, 1 steal.
Smits 17/6/1 54%. 1 block, 1 steal.

Similar story with Ewing vs. Mourning. Ewing wins the RS match ups but Mourning in the playoffs. They are a bit harder to assess, though, as they don't have much overlap in primes.

Ewing vs. Daughtery

Ewing 24/10/2 53%. 1 block, 1 steal.
Daughtery 18/9/3 53%. 2 blocks, 1 steal.

Ewing wins this, although Daughtery basically got his career average numbers against Ewing (19/10/4 on 53% for his career). They never met in the playoffs.

Shaq crushed Ewing but hard to say much since, like Mourning, their primes only briefly overlapped. Suffice it to say, in the 94' season in question, they fought each other to a draw in the RS (although both declined in the playoffs so a playoff meeting would have been interesting).

[Roundball_Rock]

This should extinguish the dumb "offensive rating" TP (from another thread where tpols was being tpols):

Fact check on their playoff oRTG's from 1991-1994 (no need to cherry pick and omit 91', as if it is different than 92'):

1994 playoffs oRTG: Pippen 104 (7th on CHI), Ewing 101 (6th on NY)
1993 playoffs oRTG: Ewing 109 (3rd on NY), Pippen 102 (9th on CHI)
1992 playoffs oRTG: Pippen 112 (4th on CHI), Ewing 110 (3rd on NY)
1991 playoffs oRTG: Pippen 116 (6th on CHI), Ewing 88 (9th on NY)
Playoff career: Pippen 108, Ewing 104

So using this dumb stat and TP, Ewing comes out behind 3 of 4 years during the time the two teams meet four consecutive years and behind career versus career. Jordan stans will careen from TP to TP, with or without the facts.

It is a dumb stat---as you can see they both ranked low on their own teams on this measure. It favors low usage role players.

[Reggie43]

Roundball the usage guy still at it again

Tell me how peak numbers of 24.6ppg .514 fg% .414 3p% on 15.7 shots is bad because of usage?

[Reggie43]

Miller wasn't on the very shortlist in the 90s, but that only means the 90s were great.

It's reasonable to take Richmond over him, especially in a vacuum, because Richmond was one of the game's best players.

But Reggie was great. Terrifying to play against, and not just because a little me saw him do something crazy against us.

I saw an older him go off against the Nets, taking it to the rim in OT. Miller can stand against Ray and all the guards of that class.

My thoughts exactly.

Unlike someone on here who gets trigerred when Pippen gets compared to his peers as if he was some sort of irreplaceable legend who did no wrong.