Consistent GOAT criteria

[1987_Lakers]

How do we determine the NBA GOAT? It seems like a lot of people go with narratives that are selective and biased.

Let's try to apply CONSISTENT criteria, no shifting the goal posts please.

1. Number of rings
Russell has 11. He has 5 MVPs too.

2. MVPs
Kareem has 6. +6 rings. +2nd highest scorer ever.

3. Best two-way players
Olajuwon and Kawhi have 2 DPOYs and 2 FMVPs. Duncan has 15 All Defensive selections, the most all time. You know the rest. Surely, these 3 are the greatest 2-way players ever.

4. Highest peak
Olajuwon won DPOY, MVP, and FMVP is 94. Nothing tops that for a full year peak.

Duncan beat peak Shaq & Kobe in 2003 without an All Star Spur teammate. Both Shaq & Kobe were in the All NBA FIRST team. Both were in the top 5 of MVP voting. Meanwhile. DRob was on his last year. Manu was a rookie. Both averaged single-digit ppg. Parker was a sophomore, 3 years away from making his first All Start appearance. Shot poorly in the playoffs too: 40.3%. Duncan's 2003 run has the all time highest single season playoff WS, 2nd all time in VORP. Greatest playoff peak ever.

5. Winning percentage
Russell was champ in 11 of his 13 seasons. That's 85% of the time.

Jordan is 6 for 15 seasons: 40%. Let's take away '95 and the Wizards years: 6 of 12 is still just 50%.

We all know "Finals record" is dumb. How is losing BEFORE the Finals better than progressing deeper into the playoffs? In any case, because somebody will inevitably bring it up, Havlicek went 8-0 in the Finals.

6. Quality of rings
LeBron was FMVP in 2016, after beating the 73-win GSW. In fact, he led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, and Klay.

Btw, he's also the NBA's all time top scorer. He did that at higher FG% than MJ. When LeBron passed Jordan, he did it with 1,300 less shots.

As mentioned, Duncan's 2003 ring was extremely alpha.

7. Winnability on different franchises
LeBron is the only player to lead three franchises into rings. Kareem and Kawhi did it 2x. All three won FMVP under different coaches, teammates, and systems.

Jordan never won without Phil or Pippen. In fact, he won just 1 playoff game without those two. Phil won 5 rings without Jordan. Pippen was 1 solid quarter away from a very probable 7th ring. Rodman, Harper, and Kerr all have rings outside of Jordan.
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Try to think of the criteria FIRST, then work out who the GOAT is. Doing it the other way around is just disingenuous.

I see your point, but #4 probably belongs to MJ.

[basketballcat]

That's your own subjective criteria though.

And that's why there can't be consistent GOAT criteria.

Oh, that's fine. We are free to choose our own criteria. It's actually good to iron out exactly what somebody means when they say GOAT. If somebody says Jordan and his marketing team greatly increased NBA's revenue, that's why he's my GOAT. No arguments there.

What I find irksome are conversations like below.

A: LeBron is the GOAT because he's the all time leading scorer.

B: Nah, it's all about winning. Jordan is the GOAT with 6 rings.

A: Wait, that means Russell is the GOAT because he has 11 rings.

B: That doesn't count, <insert reason here>
*goalpost shifted*

... <10 pages of arguments later>

*still changing goalposts, making GOAT criteria on the fly just to stick with original GOAT choice*

That's what I'm going after: criteria FIRST, applied consistently, then work out who the GOAT is. If we can't have all the same criteria, then at least have a consistent set of criteria for yourself from the beginning. What ends up happening is that people keeps modifying their criteria just so their favourite player comes out on top. It's disingenuous.

[Axe]

What about kobe? Why do some guys here have him as goat, despite not possessing any convincing factors as to why he should be?

[iamgine]

Oh, that's fine. We are free to choose our own criteria. It's actually good to iron out exactly what somebody means when they say GOAT. If somebody says Jordan and his marketing team greatly increased NBA's revenue, that's why he's my GOAT. No arguments there.

What I find irksome are conversations like below.

A: LeBron is the GOAT because he's the all time leading scorer.

B: Nah, it's all about winning. Jordan is the GOAT with 6 rings.

A: Wait, that means Russell is the GOAT because he has 11 rings.

B: That doesn't count, <insert reason here>
*goalpost shifted*

... <10 pages of arguments later>

*still changing goalposts, making GOAT criteria on the fly just to stick with original GOAT choice*

That's what I'm going after: criteria FIRST, applied consistently, then work out who the GOAT is. If we can't have all the same criteria, then at least have a consistent set of criteria for yourself from the beginning. What ends up happening is that people keeps modifying their criteria just so their favourite criteria comes out on top.

That is also not possible. It all comes to subjectivity. For example, it's very subjective which rings are more valuable. Or which era is more valuable.

Like in your example, that's not shifting goalpost. A person might legitimately feels Hakeem's 2 rings are much more valuable than Mikan's 5 rings.

[basketballcat]

What about kobe? Why do some guys here have him as goat, despite not possessing any convincing factors as to why he should be?

That's a great example. A lot of people put him in the GOAT debate because of his similarity to Jordan. He's supposed to be the improved version. Almost all objective criteria says he's not. He's not even the best of his generation since Duncan is by most objective measures the greater player.

[bison]

Kobe has something Duncan never had: The Mamba Mentality. Also when applying the eye test, Kobe is one of the few players in nba history that passes nearly flawlessly. This is why I have Kobe as #2 behind Jordan.

[basketballcat]

Kobe has something Duncan never had: The Mamba Mentality. Also when applying the eye test, Kobe is one of the few players in nba history that passes nearly flawlessly. This is why I have Kobe as #2 behind Jordan.

Here we go: intangibles, eye test, ...

Duncan has +1 FMVP, +1 MVP, +3 All Defensive selections. Duncan is universally considered as the best PF ever and the best Spur ever. Kobe is not even the best SG ever nor the best Laker ever.

[Da_Realist]

For the calculator boys... for the first 12 full seasons, MJ led the league in a per-game stat 13 times: 10 offensive and 3 defensive. In the playoffs, he led the league in a per-game stat 12 times: 10 offensive and 2 defensive. As far as I know, only Wilt topped that back in the 60's. Kareem comes close if they had recorded blocks before the 73-74 season. Two HOF Centers. MJ was a 6-6 guard. Add in 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs and DPOY you have a career even Wilt would envy.

I would imagine if someone is regarded as the best of all time, he'd show he was at least the best of the league he played in.

That's something a calculator boy can understand. Add in the flair, charisma, creativity, clutch moments...those things you can only perceive by watching the games...and maybe you can understand why many consider MJ the best they've ever seen play.

See, there are no "big" moments on basketball-ref. All regular season games are treated the same. All playoff games are treated the same. All moments within the game are treated the same way. All points are regarded the same way whether stat padding or not. A guy can score all his points in garbage time against the 2nd unit and all the stat sheet will show is 24 points. All rebounds are treated the same, whether they land in your lap or you had to fight for it. All assists treated the same whether you actually put your teammate in a position to score or he just happened to hit the shot after a lazy pass. Only by watching the game can you detect that some moments, points, assists, rebounds are more important than others. Only by watching can you see how some numbers can be manipulated to make the stat sheet look good for the calculator boys.

[ImKobe]

Here we go: intangibles, eye test, ...

Duncan has +1 FMVP, +1 MVP, +3 All Defensive selections. Duncan is universally considered as the best PF ever and the best Spur ever. Kobe is not even the best SG ever nor the best Laker ever.

Oh wow Wheelchair with another alt acting like he's trying to have a legitimate GOAT argument when it's just another thread slurping Bran.

MJ doesn't lose any points for winning with Phil & Pippen. It's much harder to win titles without stacking the deck and that's what Jordan did. Him taking a loser franchise like the Bulls and creating a dynasty without colliding with any superstars around the league is more impressive than anything Bran has ever done. Jordan did it the right way. He never came up short in a Playoff series. He was always the best player on his team in every single Playoff series. He dominated the league more consistently than anyone in league history. He never lost with HCA, never allowed his team to face elimination in the Finals. It's unlikely anyone's going to repeat what he did in his 11 healthy seasons in Chicago in the near future as the standard is just way too high.

Bran loses points for stacking the deck in 2011, 2014 & 2018. He ran when the supporting cast wasn't good enough to carry him to another championship. He's had more superstar help than any ATG in the modern NBA yet only has 4 rings which combined with his shortcomings has him out of the GOAT conversation.

Nice try though.

[Hey Yo]

Oh wow Wheelchair with another alt acting like he's trying to have a legitimate GOAT argument when it's just another thread slurping Bran.

MJ doesn't lose any points for winning with Phil & Pippen. It's much harder to win titles without stacking the deck and that's what Jordan did. Him taking a loser franchise like the Bulls and creating a dynasty without colliding with any superstars around the league is more impressive than anything Bran has ever done. Jordan did it the right way. He never came up short in a Playoff series. He was always the best player on his team in every single Playoff series. He dominated the league more consistently than anyone in league history. He never lost with HCA, never allowed his team to face elimination in the Finals. It's unlikely anyone's going to repeat what he did in his 11 healthy seasons in Chicago in the near future as the standard is just way too high.

Bran loses points for stacking the deck in 2011, 2014 & 2018. He ran when the supporting cast wasn't good enough to carry him to another championship. He's had more superstar help than any ATG in the modern NBA yet only has 4 rings which combined with his shortcomings has him out of the GOAT conversation.

Nice try though.

Kobe played with prime MDE Shaq who's sits firmly in the top 10 all time.

Who did LeBron play with (and won him 3 rings) that's currently in the top 10?

[ImKobe]

Kobe played with prime MDE Shaq who's sits firmly in the top 10 all time.

Who did LeBron play with (and won him 3 rings) that's currently in the top 10?

Why would that matter? Bran played with prime Wade, prime Irving & prime AD. Bran played in the WOAT conference where in 2015 the EC only had 3 All-NBA players total with 2 of them on the Cavs lmao.. He's had Finals runs where he didn't face a single 50-win team out East and all 3 teams were bottom 10 offensively as well.

Even if KB had better help (which is absolutely not true), he had to beat Duncan to make 4 of his 7 Finals and he was the better player in all 4 series. Kobe lost 3 years of his prime on a team that was rebuilding yet still made more Finals than Timmy and won more rings than Bran and he only needed a 1x All-Star who was barely considered a top 10-15 player at his peak to win B2B titles, something Duncan never did and Duncan was drafted to the best possible situation in the modern era with him going from D-Rob to TP/Manu & Kawhi with the GOAT coach and one of the GOAT GMs at his side for his entire career.

[Overdrive]

6. Quality of rings
LeBron was FMVP in 2016, after beating the 73-win GSW. In fact, he led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, and Klay.

Btw, he's also the NBA's all time top scorer. He did that at higher FG% than MJ. When LeBron passed Jordan, he did it with 1,300 less shots.

As mentioned, Duncan's 2003 ring was extremely alpha.

7. Winnability on different franchises
LeBron is the only player to lead three franchises into rings. Kareem and Kawhi did it 2x. All three won FMVP under different coaches, teammates, and systems.

Jordan never won without Phil or Pippen. In fact, he won just 1 playoff game without those two. Phil won 5 rings without Jordan. Pippen was 1 solid quarter away from a very probable 7th ring. Rodman, Harper, and Kerr all have rings outside of Jordan.
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Try to think of the criteria FIRST, then work out who the GOAT is. Doing it the other way around is just disingenuous.

These are exactly narrative points. So at pont 5 you found out the guy you made this alt for has no shot at GOAT under an objective criteria so you need to push some narrative? I thought you wanted to leave that out?

[Hey Yo]

Why would that matter? Bran played with prime Wade, prime Irving & prime AD. Bran played in the WOAT conference where in 2015 the EC only had 3 All-NBA players total with 2 of them on the Cavs lmao.. He's had Finals runs where he didn't face a single 50-win team out East and all 3 teams were bottom 10 offensively as well.

Even if KB had better help (which is absolutely not true), he had to beat Duncan to make 4 of his 7 Finals and he was the better player in all 4 series. Kobe lost 3 years of his prime on a team that was rebuilding yet still made more Finals than Timmy and won more rings than Bran and he only needed a 1x All-Star who was barely considered a top 10-15 player at his peak to win B2B titles, something Duncan never did and Duncan was drafted to the best possible situation in the modern era with him going from D-Rob to TP/Manu & Kawhi with the GOAT coach and one of the GOAT GMs at his side for his entire career.

Cause prime Shaq is by far the better player than those you mentioned James played with.

Cavs went up 2-0 on th 60 win Hawks without Love. Then Kyrie gets hurt, yet Cavs still go on to sweep Atlanta. Kobe would have no chance of winning a WCF if he didn't have 2 of the top 3 players on the team.

Kobe didn't face Duncan in the postseason (without Shaq) until 2008. That's when you can start talking about a series Kobe won against Duncan.

[post]

calculator goat is a good nickname for jokic

[FKAri]

1) How good were you at playing basketball in a vacuum(if I'm picking in the playground are you the 1st pick?)
2) How good were you relative to your competition(your era/opponents) at playing basketball
3) How good were you across different teams/playstyles/coaches/systems(and how well could you adapt mentally, physically, and change your play as needed and still be effective)

That's it. Nothing else matters to me. My answer is MJ based on this criteria. Though the 3rd one is not very applicable for him I do hugely value his ability to go from a quick slasher to more of a jump shooter as he got older.