Consistent GOAT criteria

[basketballcat]

You mean the objective criteras so we can go back to narratives agin?

I listed some criteria. You are not forced to adopt them.
I

[mr4speed]

In the end, criteria is subjective and flexible.

Mikan was dominant and had 5 titles, yet he's not even top 20 in most lists.

KD has two rings, but who really counts his rings as much as even one of Hakeem's rings.

As we can see, there can be no consistent criteria.

I agree and think there cannot be one GOAT. We all agree that stats alone cannot select a GOAT. We all agree that the eye test alone cannot select a GOAT. And we seem to agree that both of these are needed BUT we all disagree as to how both of these are to be fused together and the reason is because the eye test is subjective and stats do not show context, and rings are not all equal. Ask 10 people to create a formula and you will get 10 different formulas.
Because this game involves 10 players on the court makes it impossible to measure all the variables. Even in tennis and boxing there are debates about the best ever.
Look at this thread and there are still arguments about the best in an era = Kobe vs Duncan, Bird vs Magic, Russell vs Wilt etc...
It is our nature to discuss and want to rank players and it can be educational and fun - we should not stop, but how do you ever find a formula everyone accepts? It wont happen. If you do have a formula then for fun I want to ask where do you rank Sam Jones? He has 10 rings and Russell is the player who built his confidence.

[basketballcat]

Teacher: What is 1+1?

basketballcat: 2, however Lebron's 1 is fancier so it's 3, but only for him.

My topmost criteria literally highlights Russell's 11 rings. But yeah, let's pretend GOAT conversations with number of rings as main criterion is about LeBron just so people can say "but Michael-Pippen-Phil has 6".

[basketballcat]

It's getting sad. MJ established something in Chicago. Why would he run away to prove something that wouldn't be in question until after he retired? Who runs away from a winning team that he helped establish? LeBron didn't. Let's be honest. LeBron ran from Cleveland because he couldn't establish a dynasty. And the Spurs ran him out of Miami. And GS ran him out of Cleveland the second time. Then a real conference forced him to cry for AD. Let's be real. Now running is a virtue?

Yeah, 1-9 is sad.

[John8204]

In the end, criteria is subjective and flexible.

Mikan was dominant and had 5 titles, yet he's not even top 20 in most lists.

KD has two rings, but who really counts his rings as much as even one of Hakeem's rings.

As we can see, there can be no consistent criteria.

7 titles...5 rings and I have him in my top ten.

For me it's simple...where does a player rank amongst his contemporaries and where does he rank based on his position and criss cross the two.

Top 5 MVP finishes (2014)

15 6 1 2 4 2 Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem 70-81,84-86
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11 5 2 2 2 0 Russell, Bill 58-67, 69
11 1 1 3 3 3 Bryant, Kobe 02-04,06-13
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10 5 3 2 0 0 Jordan, Michael 87-93,96-98
10 4 2 1 2 1 Chamberlain, Wilt 60-62,64-68,72,73
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9 4 2 1 1 1 James, Lebron 06-14
9 3 4 1 1 0 Bird, Larry 80-88
9 3 2 4 0 0 Johnson, Magic 83-91
9 2 2 1 2 2 Duncan, Tim 98-05,07
9 2 1 2 3 1 Malone, Karl 89-92,95,97-00
9 1 1 3 1 3 Robertson, Oscar 61-68,71
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8 2 2 1 3 0 Pettit, Bob 56-61,63,64
8 1 2 2 2 1 O'Neal, Shaquille 94,95,98,00-03,05
8 0 4 1 0 3 West, Jerry 62-66,70-72
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7 0 1 3 1 2 Baylor, Elgin 59-63,68,69
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6 1 1 0 2 2 Olajuwon, Hakeem 86,89,93-96
6 0 0 0 3 3 Ewing, Patrick 89,90,92-95
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5 3 0 1 1 0 Malone, Moses 79,81-83,85
5 1 3 0 0 1 Durant, Kevin 10-14
5 1 2 2 0 0 Robinson, David 91,92,94-96
5 1 2 1 0 1 Garnett, Kevin 00,01,03-04,08
5 1 1 1 0 5 Erving, Julius 77, 80-83

Now some guys belong on that list but didn't register because at the time they were thought of as all-time greats. John Stockton for example and his assists per year numbers weren't valued at the time and Karl Malone was getting the votes. Stockton's numbers have aged well...Malone's haven't. John Havlicek 8-0 finals record wasn't a big deal back then...now it's a bigger deal and Cowen's MVP runs seem less impressive. Curry is still building his resume he's the "best shooter ever" but he's only got 4 finishes.

[Real Men Wear Green]

At least win with a different sidekick. Duncan won without DRob later on. Duncan didn't have Manu & Parker on his first ring.

That's just as unfair if not more. Its Jordan's job to make the Bulls trade Pippen for Mitch Richmond so that he can meet one of your arbitrary standards of greatness? That doesn't make any sense.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Some say, KG would have been as successful as Duncan had he been with the Spurs. Maybe. Duncan actually was successful. KG with Spurs = high probability, TD with Spurs = certainty, as it actually happened. Certainty > high probability.

Jordan had years without Pippen. All he managed is 1-9 in the playoffs. Some might say that he was too young. Magic & Duncan were alphas from the get go.

So he was 1-9 in the 85, 86, 87 playoffs.
In 84-85 he was a rookie putting up 27 PPG. His #2 player was Orlando Woolridge - ever hear of him?
In fact if you do some research, you'll see that Jordan's rookie NBA numbers are nearly identical to Kobe's 2008 MVP season. Except Jordan had a higher FG%. He was an alpha from Oct 1984, just didn't have a team with players like KAJ & DR sitting there ready to go, now did he?
In 85-86 he came back in late March after missing 65 games, and his trainer told him to sit out the rest of the season. Met the 40-1 Celtics in the first round and dropped the still standing record in a playoff game of 63 points. His #2 teammate was Orlando Wooldridge.

Lebron's first 2 years he didn't make the playoffs.

Once the GOAT started winning, he went 6/6 with 6 finals MVPs. Didn't have a 8 point game in 2011 and average 17 points in the finals, nor score 7 points in a 2014 playoff game vs. Indiana.

So, if 1-9 with a broken leg in the middle is your biggest argument against Jordan, none of that is as bad as getting outscored by Jason Terry who came off the bench and was 35, or 3 years later losing by a record margin to a 37 year old Tim Duncan & an air conditioner.

[basketballcat]

That's just as unfair if not more. Its Jordan's job to make the Bulls trade Pippen for Mitch Richmond so that he can meet one of your arbitrary standards of greatness? That doesn't make any sense.

That's just morphing the conversation into a strawman argument. When did I say Jordan should have left the Bulls or trade Pippen?

I said he should have won without Pippen. He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

[basketballcat]

So he was 1-9 in the 85, 86, 87 playoffs.
In 84-85 he was a rookie putting up 27 PPG. His #2 player was Orlando Woolridge - ever hear of him?
In 85-86 he came back in late March after missing 65 games, and his trainer told him to sit out the rest of the season. Met the 40-1 Celtics in the first round and dropped the still standing record in a playoff game of 63 points. His #2 teammate was Orlando Wooldridge.

Lebron's first 2 years he didn't make the playoffs.

Once the GOAT started winning, he went 6/6 with 6 finals MVPs. Didn't have a 8 point game in 2011 and average 17 points in the finals, nor score 7 points in a 2014 playoff game vs. Indiana.

So, if 1-9 with a broken leg in the middle is your biggest argument against Jordan, none of that is as bad as getting outscored by Jason Terry who came off the bench and was 35, or 3 years later losing by a record margin to a 37 year old Tim Duncan & an air conditioner.

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

[basketballcat]

Scoring & winning

Kareem has 6 rings too, with more points at higher FG% than Jordan.

KAJ only won once in the 70's and didn't do crap until Magic came along

1-9

[Shaquille O'Neal]

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills. Jordan MADE Pippen who he was. Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ? I sure saw his 94 Bulls get knocked out in the first round, and even with a 15 point lead in 2000 with the Blazers 'ol headache/backache Scottie couldn't get it done. See 1990 Game 7 vs. the Pistons and how great Scottie was. Same for 1998 Game 6 - Jordan won 6 despite having a questionable sidekick that was unreliable.

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard. Congrats!

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem has 6 rings too, with more points at higher FG% than Jordan.

1-9

Rather go 1-9 than miss the playoffs 4 times in a career, about to be a 5th. How awful do you have to be to have 2-3 Top 75 players of all time and miss the damn 10th spot for a playin game?
You do know the 02/03 Wizards ended in 10th place - by today's rules, Jordan would never have missed the playoffs (never did as a Bull) or play-in game. Last year the Lakers were 33-49. About the game as Lebron's pathetic 22 wins / 33 losses finals record.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills. Jordan MADE Pippen who he was. Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ? I sure saw his 94 Bulls get knocked out in the first round, and even with a 15 point lead in 2000 with the Blazers 'ol headache/backache Scottie couldn't get it done. See 1990 Game 7 vs. the Pistons and how great Scottie was. Same for 1998 Game 6 - Jordan won 6 despite having a questionable sidekick that was unreliable.

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard. Congrats!

They swept the Cavs in the 1st round.

[BigShotBob]

Some say, KG would have been as successful as Duncan had he been with the Spurs. Maybe. Duncan actually was successful. KG with Spurs = high probability, TD with Spurs = certainty, as it actually happened. Certainty > high probability.

Jordan had years without Pippen. All he managed is 1-9 in the playoffs. Some might say that he was too young. Magic & Duncan were alphas from the get go.

David Robinson was already on the Spurs when Duncan got there. So was Gregg Popovich.

Scottie and Phil weren't on the Bulls when MJ got there. When they came together they won.

I think I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That's just morphing the conversation into a strawman argument. When did I say Jordan should have left the Bulls or trade Pippen?

I said he should have won without Pippen. He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

Contextless nonsense. "1-9" is the meaningless answer to James finals record. If you really wanted honest analysis you would look at who they played with who they played against and what they actually did as individuals. You are obviously just one more troll. Thanks for nothing.