Consistent GOAT criteria

[Da_Realist]

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

You can't see there are two different contexts because you don't want to. Pippen took over a championship experienced team after being MJ's understudy. Then after he left Chicago he chose Houston with 2 HOFamers then after that blew up he chose the most talented team in the league in Portland. There is a reason Pippen didn't choose the Atlanta Hawks. Pippen knew what he was doing.

[basketballcat]

It's cute how some people try to knock down Russell based on scoring. Oh, we'll just ignore his 22.5 rpg career average? How convenient/selective.

Does Russell's astronomical number of rebounds make up for his less than stellar points output?
Russell: 22.5 + 15.1 = 37.6
Jordan: 6.2 + 30.1 = 36.3

[FKAri]

He had 3 years without Pippen. 1-9 is all he could manage. Of those 3 years, he shot poorly in the playoffs in 2. Duncan already had a ring on his first 3 years. Magic had 2. As I said, Duncan won with different side kicks.

Pippen himself was without Jordan as a Bull. He managed 6 wins. That's 6 times of Jordan's wins at 1/3 the seasons. On a per season basis, Pippen was 18 times more successful. He led the team in all major stats except blocks.

Magic and Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate. In fact a major boost to MJ's legacy is that he is one of the only players to be drafted to a terrible team and franchise which he turned into a dynasty. He made the Bulls the center of the NBA world for his tenure. Can you criticize his lack of success in the early years? I guess. Everyone could have done more. Maybe one day we'll see a guy who could have made deep runs with those squads. We haven't yet.

[basketballcat]

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills.

Oh, the irony.

Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ?

Remind me again how many rings MJ won without Pippen and Phil?

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard.

Arguing that Jordan was so great when he had teams with Pippen and Phil is about the dumbest argument I've heard.

Oh, you don't like it if CONSISTENT logic is applied to your favourite player?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem has 6 rings too, with more points at higher FG% than Jordan.

KAJ: Career 24 PPG
MJ: Career 30.1 PPG

Finals stats:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar averaged 23.5 points, 9.1 rebounds and 3.2 assists in 56 games in the NBA Finals in his career.
Michael Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists in 35 games in the NBA Finals in his career.

So where is the more points again? We go by "per game" in the NBA, not longevity.
Took KAJ 56 damn finals games to only win 6? Lebron has played in 55 and only won 4? Wow, talk about the battle of 2nd-3rd tier greats.

[basketballcat]

Rather go 1-9 than miss the playoffs 4 times in a career, about to be a 5th. How awful do you have to be to have 2-3 Top 75 players of all time and miss the damn 10th spot for a playin game?
You do know the 02/03 Wizards ended in 10th place - by today's rules, Jordan would never have missed the playoffs (never did as a Bull) or play-in game. Last year the Lakers were 33-49. About the game as Lebron's pathetic 22 wins / 33 losses finals record.

On the three years that Jordan "made the playoffs" without Pippen or Phil, he had a losing regular season record on all 3 seasons.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Oh, the irony.


Remind me again how many rings MJ won without Pippen and Phil?



Arguing that Jordan was so great when he had teams with Pippen and Phil is about the dumbest argument I've heard.

Oh, you don't like it if CONSISTENT logic is applied to your favourite player?

Phil Jackson ran Tex Winter's triangle offense; sure didn't dribble the damn ball himself by that point. Up next you'll give accolades to someone in the front office for someone winning a title.
I'll argue that Pippen COST Jordan the opportunity in 1990 with his 2/10 shooting, and Jordan did win 1998 Game 6 with "backache" Pippen giving him 10 points.

But, LeGED has always had 2 all star side kicks (Love, Irving,Wade, Bosh) and had teammates outscore him in the finals. 17 PPG 2011 Finals? This is your GOAT?

[basketballcat]

KAJ: Career 24 PPG
MJ: Career 30.1 PPG

Kareem: 38,387 pts 55.9% on FG%
Jordan: 32,292 pts on 49.7% FG%

Ouch.

Can you work out why Jordan has higher ppg? It's pretty simple but maybe it might take you a while.

[Hey Yo]

I'm starting to think you have reading and/or comprehension skills. Jordan MADE Pippen who he was. Remind me again how many rings Pippen won without MJ? I sure saw his 94 Bulls get knocked out in the first round, and even with a 15 point lead in 2000 with the Blazers 'ol headache/backache Scottie couldn't get it done. See 1990 Game 7 vs. the Pistons and how great Scottie was. Same for 1998 Game 6 - Jordan won 6 despite having a questionable sidekick that was unreliable.

Arguing that Duncan and Magic were so great when they came to teams with Kareem and David Robinson is about the dumbest argument I've heard. Congrats!

So why didn't MJ make more Pippen's before or after Scottie arrived?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

On the three years that Jordan "made the playoffs" without Pippen or Phil, he had a losing regular season record on all 3 seasons.

6 rings, 6 FMVP, 10 scoring titles, 3 steals titles, 5x league MVP, 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, 1xNCAA ring
vs.
4 rings, 4 FMVP, 1 scoring title, 1 assist title, 4x league MVP, Bronze medal, can't spell college.

There's a Hall of Fame player dividing the difference between the two - that's how wide it is. There's a reason 80% of people still have Jordan as the GOAT.

[basketballcat]

If you really wanted honest analysis you would look at who they played with who they played against and what they actually did as individuals.

Oh, is that what you want to do? Somebody beat a 73-win team. In the Finals, he led in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. Yes, all of it. Also had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, & Klay.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem: 38,387 pts 55.9% on FG%
Jordan: 32,292 pts on 49.7% FG%

Ouch.

Can you work out why Jordan has higher ppg? It's pretty simple but maybe it might take you a while.

Better scorer? Better shooter? KAJ is a center; his average was only 55.9%? Man at 7 feet he sure missed a lot of shots.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Oh, is that what you want to do? Somebody beat a 73-win team. In the Finals, he led in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. Yes, all of it. Also had higher FG% than Kyrie, Steph, & Klay.

The same 73-9 team that went 15-9 in the playoffs? The one with a hurt Steph? The same team that got down 3-1 vs. OKC? Team that petered out in the playoffs?
LeGED had a sidekick that scored 41 points on 71% in one of those games. Remind me - what finals series did Jordan have with a sidedkick that only scored 2 PPG less than he did for an entire 7 game series? "I need moar help!"

Real 2016 MVP : Kyrie Irving, and it's not even close.

[basketballcat]

Magic and Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate.

Spurs in 96-97, year before Duncan: 20-62
Spurs in 97-98, Duncan's rookie year: 56-26
In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Spurs in 96-97, year before Duncan: 20-62
Spurs in 97-98, Duncan's rookie year: 56-26
In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team.

Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance.

I agree here, which is why I have Duncan 3-4 spots above Lebron. He's 5/6 in the finals, and instead of coming in the league and missing the playoffs his first 2 years he got a ring and elevated his team.