Consistent GOAT criteria

[basketballcat]

MJ is the only goat-level athlete that is also a goat-level shooter

... that is a subpar 3-point "shooter". And no, he is not just subpar relative to today's standards. His 3pt% was subpar relative to his own era.

Even his overall FG% is inferior to Kareem and LeBron.

[Overdrive]

Ah yes, because people are ssooooo sensitive about protecting their selective narratives.

You're the one who had to insert selective narratives to even mention Lebron.

[mr4speed]

Where did I say "that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence"? You make it seem like I did and completely ignored the context: "In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team."

My actual sarcastic point is "Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance." in response to the context "Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate."

And you people pretend like I'm the one putting things out of context.

You did not "say" anything about the injuries the prior year. Listing the games won and lost, before and after Duncan arrived = I felt needed context. Like I said, people forget.

[3ba11]

.
Thought process of a Lebron fan:

1) Look up MJ's career on basketball-reference

2) Raise eyebrows at how little MJ needed to win 2 three-peats

3) Instead of praising MJ for winning with less like the hated triangle offense or a secondary producer & lane-clogger like Pippen, they say he "needed" these things (bizarro world).

Instead of praising MJ for achieving GOAT stats within an offense that was designed to suppress the star player, they pretend the triangle was somehow a benefit to his dominance/production rate.

Ultimately, Lebron will be 1/4 with AD just like he was 1/4 with Love, and 1/4 with Wade (except the Allen miracle), so 20 years of longevity confirms that Lebron isn't capable of a dynasty, 3-peat or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ.. His lack of expert jumpshooting and skillset of abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that prevents the teammate development, fits or strategic capacity/coaching to win organically (via chemistry), thus requiring super-teams (talent-based winning).

[FKAri]

Where did I say "that 36 game turnaround was not only because of his presence"? You make it seem like I did and completely ignored the context: "In 97-98, Duncan came in 5th in MVP voting, made the All NBA FIRST team, and All Defensive team."

My actual sarcastic point is "Yeah, but let's pretend their turnaround has nothing to do with Duncan's individual brilliance." in response to the context "Duncan landed on good teams right out of the gate."

And you people pretend like I'm the one putting things out of context.

I didn't say they were great teams. They were all good teams or teams with good pieces. The superstars took them over the top. MJ arrived on a much worse team than a guy like Duncan, Bird or Magic is my point.

[3ba11]

MJ arrived on a much worse team than a guy like Duncan, Bird or Magic is my point.

And he started over from scratch for a 2nd time in 87' after the front office got rid of the 1st and 2nd options from the horrible 86' team (Woolridge, Gervin), so Jordan's 87' cast was worse than 85'.

Ultimately, MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in the playoffs (bad teams), while Lebron avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup or bad playoff teams by waiting 3 years to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran, high seed with all-star centers and HOF coaching.. aka people make a mistake by comparing Jordan's Year 1 eight seeds vs Lebron's Year 3 high seeds

[FKAri]

And he started over from scratch for a 2nd time in 87' after the front office got rid of the 1st and 2nd options from the horrible 86' team (Woolridge, Gervin), so Jordan's 87' cast was worse than 85'.

Ultimately, MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in the playoffs (bad teams), while Lebron avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup or bad playoff teams by waiting 3 years to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran, high seed with all-star centers and HOF coaching.. aka people make a mistake by comparing Jordan's Year 1 eight seeds vs Lebron's Year 3 high seeds

1-9

[basketballcat]

I didn't say they were great teams. They were all good teams or teams with good pieces. The superstars took them over the top. MJ arrived on a much worse team than a guy like Duncan, Bird or Magic is my point.

Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

It's very clear that Pippen and Phil had as much impact as Jordan. The marketing narrative of "The Great Jordan and his friends" is clearly a myth. Put Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, and a host of others on that Bulls team in lieau of Jordan and you will probably get similar results, if not better.

Compare that to Duncan. Immediately made the Spurs a contender. Won without DRob. Won without Manu & Parker. Hard carried the Spurs in 2003.

[basketballcat]

Ultimately, MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in the playoffs

Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

It's very clear that Pippen and Phil had as much impact as Jordan. The marketing narrative of "The Great Jordan and his friends" is clearly a myth. Put Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, and a host of others on that Bulls team in lieu of Jordan and you will probably get similar results, if not better.

Compare that to Duncan. Immediately made the Spurs a contender. Won without DRob. Won without Manu & Parker. Hard carried the Spurs in 2003.

[Gudo]

Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

It's very clear that Pippen and Phil had as much impact as Jordan. The marketing narrative of "The Great Jordan and his friends" is clearly a myth. Put Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, and a host of others on that Bulls team in lieau of Jordan and you will probably get similar results, if not better.

Compare that to Duncan. Immediately made the Spurs a contender. Won without DRob. Won without Manu & Parker. Hard carried the Spurs in 2003.

So simply the addition of Pippen by itself led to a 10-win increase from 87-88 even if rookie Pip played only 20mpg and averaged 7ppg? That is a huge and efficient impact indeed.

[basketballcat]

So simply the addition of Pippen by itself led to a 10-win increase from 87-88 even if rookie Pip played only 20mpg and averaged 7ppg? That is a huge and efficient impact indeed.

1-9

[3ba11]

Bulls
84 (no Jordan): 27-55, missed playoffs
85 (+ Jordan): 38-44, 1-3 first round exit
88 (+ Pippen): 50-32, 1-4 second round exit
90 (+ Phil head coach): 55-27, 3-4 conf finals exit

The bolded above shows the difference between rookie Jordan and the GOAT (35/6/6 and DPOY Jordan)

Here's a good way to understand how good the GOAT was in 1988 - Jordan's 35/6/6 dwarfs the next-best-scoring DPOY, which was Hakeem's 27 ppg

carried the Spurs in 2003.

That's how all of MJ's rings were

[basketballcat]

That's how all of MJ's rings were

Oh, let's have a look see. In the 96 Finals, Pippen led the Bulls in assists, steals, and blocks. Rodman had absurd rebound numbers. Must be nice to have all the other aspects of the game taken care of. Of course, Jordan led the Bulls ... in turnovers.

1-9

Actually, Kemp had equal or better production than Jordan.
points: 23.3 Kemp, 27.3 Jordan
rebounds: 10.0 Kemp, 5.3 Jordan
assists: 2.2 Kemp, 4.2 Jordan
steals: 1.0 Kemp, 1.7 Jordan
blocks: 2.0 Kemp, 0.2 Jordan
FG%: 55.1% Kemp, 41.5% Jordan (yikes! )

[basketballcat]

I'll leave you eye test gang with the below. Ciao.

---------

Teacher: What is 1 + 1?

Captain Intangibles: The eye test tells me it's 4.

---------

Is the Earth flat?

Mr. I-watched-games: "Yes, of course it's flat! Look at the ground. You can clearly see that it's flat. Put your measurement instruments away, nerd."

[Axe]

My topmost criteria literally highlights Russell's 11 rings. But yeah, let's pretend GOAT conversations with number of rings as main criterion is about LeBron just so people can say "but Michael-Pippen-Phil has 6".

Yeah but it's also painfully obvious how you had to omit a certain criteria in your own op where you already know that he tops amongst the atgs.

I troll about him because he has immature fans who are bran-hating retards but you can't deny that the bald one still has an unrivalled total of six finals mvps; only king kong lebron comes second with four (although he got one of them during the 2020 disney bubble).