Jokic's title run when compared to other all time greats

[j3lademaster]

In my opinion, Jamal Murray is an awful decision maker / Point Guard. He was able to score a lot of points because of what I call the "Fat-boy Handoff Screen Action" with Jokic. Jokic's incredible playmaking allowed Murray to attack at will, although I will admit Jamal Murray had a great playoff run he's pretty low for a second option on a dominant championship team. 2000 Shaq had Kobe and a laundry list of solid role players like Glen Rice, Harper, Fisher, Brian Shaw, etc. And Shaq's brutal FT shooting kinda hurts late in games. Duncan's runs were excellent as well, but he had Ginobili / Parker / David Robinson (although he didn't have Ginobili / Parker in '99, that's probably the best single player run in recent memory). Most of these players I listed are better than 6'2 Jamal Murray being the 2nd best player. So it is an all-time great run, especially considering who he dispatched on the way. Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker / CP3, Lebron / AD is a wall mount worthy trophy level hunt.

And just to clarify, I don't think Denver is a team full of scrubs. Mike Malone did an incredible job of promoting movement / cutting / teamwork, and everyone bought into the system. Aaron Gordon played great defense and his size / athleticism was great. Porter Jr had a good playoffs until the Finals, but still having a 6'10 guy out there working hard is nice. And obviously Jamal Murray is still a great player / scorer despite not being the best decision maker. Bruce Brown and Christian Braun off the bench brought energy and hustle, with some timely plays. Overall, any championship is a team effort. But I have not seen a team more reliant on one player in a long long time, and Jokic's play definitely impressed me.

Murray is similar type of player to Kyrie. They're single minded in their approach, but the one thing they specialize in, they're great at and great under pressure. But to win with those guys you need a do-it-all superstar like Jokic or Lebron, which obviously don't grow on trees.

[j3lademaster]

I guarantee you the Nuggets players themselves would tell you that seeing Jokic’s focus, unselfishness, consistency etc first hand has made them better as individuals. As I said, guys feel silly going out there playing low IQ ball next to Jokic. On teams that dont have that kind of leadership, players dont stick out as much for making low IQ plays and feel less inhibited to do it.

You can actually see it over the course of watching them the last couple years. He has contributed to the mentality guys go out there and play with. It’s contagious. Obviously the players’ talent level doesnt change, but they absolutely play with better discipline knowing theyll be the obvious weak link if they dont.

Same impact on a team’s basketball culture Lebron is famous for creating. It’s a real thing.

Yup, superstars that change the culture of a team. When you know you will be rewarded for running the court, moving offball/ cutting etc it will translate to effort everywhere on the court

[NBAGOAT]

Where was that level of professionalism in every other season? Jokic is great because he also improves teams but giving him credit for how others do when he's on the bench makes absolutely zero sense. The team was incredible this post season, as was Jok. And yes you can absolutely look at that bench and be impressed, one guy was arguably the best player vs Boston when KD and Kyrie were on the team. He's one of the best off the bench players in the entire league. They got the right players along with what they already had, their GM deserves a lot of credit for acquiring the final pieces to the puzzle.

These guys are going to be a problem for years in the league.

Eh their bench didn’t do much outside Bruce. To your bigger point Bruce is likely starting for some other team next year. Denver can’t pay him. Denver’s starting lineup will still be one of the best in the league but their bench could be trash

[90sgoat]

The first game I saw Jokic play in the playoffs (first Lakers game), I said to my sportsbetting pal, that he better put some money down on Jokic as FMVP.

It was instantly obvious to me that I was watching an all time great after that game.

Most people probably haven't watched Jokic in the playoffs enough to really understand how great he is. There's no doubt he's in the absolute top of peak performances. Most dominant performance since 2001 Shaq.

[theman93]

If Jokic keeps this statistical output up for another ~6 years and adds 2 more championships+FMVP's I would have no problem entertaining the idea of him leapfrogging Magic.

[hold this L]

I guarantee you the Nuggets players themselves would tell you that seeing Jokic’s focus, unselfishness, consistency etc first hand has made them better as individuals. As I said, guys feel silly going out there playing low IQ ball next to Jokic. On teams that dont have that kind of leadership, players dont stick out as much for making low IQ plays and feel less inhibited to do it.

You can actually see it over the course of watching them the last couple years. He has contributed to the mentality guys go out there and play with. It’s contagious. Obviously the players’ talent level doesnt change, but they absolutely play with better discipline knowing theyll be the obvious weak link if they dont.

Same impact on a team’s basketball culture Lebron is famous for creating. It’s a real thing.

Except that Lebron's teams tank without him on floor, so that's a terrible example. I guess Lebron is a legendary terrible leader by that metric.

[hold this L]

Eh their bench didn’t do much outside Bruce. To your bigger point Bruce is likely starting for some other team next year. Denver can’t pay him. Denver’s starting lineup will still be one of the best in the league but their bench could be trash

I thought Bruce had 1 more year? They might fall apart, but we have to wait and see. The previous season the bench tanked at a legendary level without Jokic. During the PS, they were barely any worse with him off the floor. Very bizarre turnaround, but it could be a case where a lot of things click at the end. Most championship runs are about timing.

[NBAGOAT]

I thought Bruce had 1 more year? They might fall apart, but we have to wait and see. The previous season the bench tanked at a legendary level without Jokic. During the PS, they were barely any worse with him off the floor. Very bizarre turnaround, but it could be a case where a lot of things click at the end. Most championship runs are about timing.

He’s got a player option that he’ll 100% decline because he’s so underpaid

[rmt]

In my opinion, Jamal Murray is an awful decision maker / Point Guard. He was able to score a lot of points because of what I call the "Fat-boy Handoff Screen Action" with Jokic. Jokic's incredible playmaking allowed Murray to attack at will, although I will admit Jamal Murray had a great playoff run he's pretty low for a second option on a dominant championship team. 2000 Shaq had Kobe and a laundry list of solid role players like Glen Rice, Harper, Fisher, Brian Shaw, etc. And Shaq's brutal FT shooting kinda hurts late in games. Duncan's runs were excellent as well, but he had Ginobili / Parker / David Robinson (although he didn't have Ginobili / Parker in '99, that's probably the best single player run in recent memory). Most of these players I listed are better than 6'2 Jamal Murray being the 2nd best player. So it is an all-time great run, especially considering who he dispatched on the way. Towns / Gobert / Edwards, Durant / Booker / CP3, Lebron / AD is a wall mount worthy trophy level hunt.

And just to clarify, I don't think Denver is a team full of scrubs. Mike Malone did an incredible job of promoting movement / cutting / teamwork, and everyone bought into the system. Aaron Gordon played great defense and his size / athleticism was great. Porter Jr had a good playoffs until the Finals, but still having a 6'10 guy out there working hard is nice. And obviously Jamal Murray is still a great player / scorer despite not being the best decision maker. Bruce Brown and Christian Braun off the bench brought energy and hustle, with some timely plays. Overall, any championship is a team effort. But I have not seen a team more reliant on one player in a long long time, and Jokic's play definitely impressed me.

2003 Manu, Parker and DRob were not better than 2023 Murray:

2003 Finals
Parker 14 pts 4.2 assts 38.6%FG (20 years old, 2nd year player)
Manu 8.7 pts 4.5 rebs 34.8%FG (rookie)
DRob 10.8 pts 7.3 rebs 61.1%FG (37 years old)

2023 Finals
Murray 21.4 pts 6.2 rebs 10 assts 45.1%FG
Gordon 14 pts 7.4 rebs 60.4%FG

[FultzNationRISE]

If Jokic keeps this statistical output up for another ~6 years and adds 2 more championships+FMVP's I would have no problem entertaining the idea of him leapfrogging Magic.

But if he keeps this same level up and lets say Murray and Porter Jr get hurt again and he doesnt get a realistic chance to win championships and fmvp’s, that makes you rate him as less of a player…?

[bdonovan]

1. Bill Russell is the most overrated player of all time. I do not credit his 11 rings in an 8 team league when he was NEVER ONCE the best player in the league (Career 44% FG, 56% FT.)

As has been pointed out, 44% FG in a typical year Russell played was often sufficient to be in the top 10. You cannot export numbers from decades ago to today and compare them apples to apples.

His second best player Jamal Murray is a good scorer but an absolutely awful decision maker / Point Guard.

Murray's job is to score and he's highly effective in that role; shooting 40% from 3 point range during the season. He averaged 10 assists/game in the Finals, more than Jokic, and with no more TO's/game than Jokic. We can celebrate player's greatness without trying to detract from their teammates in order to elevate them further.

[90sgoat]

If Jokic keeps this statistical output up for another ~6 years and adds 2 more championships+FMVP's I would have no problem entertaining the idea of him leapfrogging Magic.

Depends on where you rank Magic?

I'm late to the Jokic horseriding crew, but imo, he has more of a career trajectory to Larry Bird.

He's been absolutely mind blowingly elite for the last 3 years, but his team wasn't there. His peak right now is absurd, dominant, aesthetic, allround. Not a single negative thing you can put on it.

If he repeats, imo, he is already top 10. I'd push out someone like Hakeem, Wilt or Lebron.

If he can get to 3 or 4 rings in a career, then he'll be solidly around Duncan, Bird, Magic level.

[Wally450]

Stopped reading right there

Yep. I obviously wasn't alive to watch Bill in his prime, but the stories you read throughout the years about what kind of competitor he was, it speaks volumes what he was able to do at that time.

Wilt was all about stats. Russell was all about winning.

[Gotterdammerung]

Stopped reading right there

Ditto.

Bill Russell is frequently subjected to undue criticism, undervaluation, or outright neglect in discussions about basketball greats. Although he retired over half a century ago, which predates the birth of a majority of NBA enthusiasts, it is essential to recognize the wealth of information available about him, including video footage, statistics, and testimonials from teammates and adversaries.

Far from being just an outstanding rebounder and defender, Russell was a double-digit scorer and an elite passer. Over the course of 20 years in organized basketball, encompassing high school, college, the Olympics, and the NBA, his teams consistently emerged as champions.

In high school, he led McClymonds to two California State basketball titles. At the University of San Francisco, he was instrumental in a 55-game winning streak, which included two NCAA championships. He didn’t stop there. He went on to captain the USA basketball team to a glorious victory, clinching the gold medal at the 1956 Olympic Games in Melbourne, Australia.

Upon joining the NBA, Russell's impact was immediately felt as he steered the Boston Celtics to their first title in 1957 during his rookie season. Furthermore, he broke new ground by becoming the NBA's first player-coach, a role in which he added two more championships to his name. When he retired, he had amassed an awe-inspiring collection of 11 championship rings in just 13 years, an achievement that remains unparalleled in North American team sports.

Bill Russell's shot-blocking prowess is another aspect that warrants attention. While blocked shots were not officially recorded during his era, Harvey Pollack and other statisticians made informal tallies. There is compelling evidence to suggest that both Russell and Wilt Chamberlain routinely blocked between 8 to 10 shots per game, which is a staggering number.

His indelible impact on winning, his leadership, and his all-around skills make a powerful case for Bill Russell as one of, if not the greatest basketball player of all time. It is imperative that current and future generations of basketball fans acknowledge and appreciate the enormity of his contributions to the sport.

[hold this L]

Yep. I obviously wasn't alive to watch Bill in his prime, but the stories you read throughout the years about what kind of competitor he was, it speaks volumes what he was able to do at that time.

Wilt was all about stats. Russell was all about winning.

Wilt is a stat padding loser. Dude is the all time great with the smallest win % defferential of when he plays vs when he doesn't. Also has some of the biggest stat drop offs RS > PS.