How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[elementally morale]

None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.

Taking nearly all end of the shotclock and end of the quarter shots didn't help him in this regard. But sure, he took plenty of crazy (meaning: bad) shots. It was a part of him being him. Sometimes it was very frustrating, yes. However, many good things also happened. Out of 3-4 insanely difficult shots he usually made one. Sometimes two. And the were periods when he just couldn't miss. So as much as this bad shot selection affected him badly, it also made him Kobe. You can literally make a 10 minute long highlight packed with crazy shots and you will not see the same shot twice.

I'll say it again: greatness is more than being a good player. Greatness is memories. Greatness is when kids 10,000 miles away throw something near a bin and they yell 'Kobe'. The 'Mamba mentality' is a real thing among ballers. The list goes on.

Greatness is this, here, this very thread. A thread about Tim Duncan? 5 replies. Hakeem? 20 replies, maybe. We are at 210. You have to be great to be discussed this much, especially if you are not a clear cut top 10 player and it's like 15 years ago when your actual play mattered. This is greatness.

[Phoenix]

spurs being an amazing defensive team doesn’t make detroit’s any worse

that’s not how it works

i’m not going to dig for stats and i’m not trying to be rude but if you don’t believe the 04 Pistons was one of the best defensive teams of all time…

I’m sorry just gonna have to disengage from this conversation

Nothing I've said argues against Detroit's defensive prowess. The point in bringing up San Antonio is to say they were actually the number one ranked defensive team in 04, and Kobe played much better against them. That's not an opinion-based comment, that's what happened.

It's also factual that Shaq was being single-covered and a better scoring option in the context of how Detroit was defending LA. Here's where my opinion comes into play, the better strategy would have been to feature Shaq more in the offense and pressure the Pistons interior D, not Kobe forcing shots over double teams or Tayshaun Prince, effectively playing into their hands.

All that said, I also said that going more through Shaq doesn't change the outcome, but it's probably a more competitive series.

Every single all-timer has had a bad series. I saw live when Jordan went 9-35 against Miami or something like that in 97. Shit happens.

[warriorfan]

None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing Kobe is as good as Michael Jordan

When you look at Kobe’s TS relative to league average and his peers it’s not bad at all

Mix this with his defense, playmaking, and countless other intangibles

It’s not a stretch to say he was one of the greatest players of all time.

If people (not necessarily saying you) want to hyperfocus on FG% while ignoring all other factors then fine.

It’s just not a very accurate representation of what really happened.

[warriorfan]

Nothing I've said argues against Detroit's defensive prowess. The point in bringing up San Antonio is to say they were actually the number one ranked defensive team in 04, and Kobe played much better against them. That's not an opinion-based comment, that's what happened.

It's also factual that Shaq was being single-covered and a better scoring option in the context of how Detroit was defending LA. Here's where my opinion comes into play, the better strategy would have been to feature Shaq more in the offense and pressure the Pistons interior D, not Kobe forcing shots over double teams or Tayshaun Prince, effectively playing into their hands.

All that said, I also said that going more through Shaq doesn't change the outcome, but it's probably a more competitive series.

Every single all-timer has had a bad series. I saw live when Jordan went 9-35 against Miami or something like that in 97. Shit happens.

So Kobe torched one of the best defenses then sputtered vs another one

Look out! Guys I think Kobe just fell out of the top 100!!!!

[tontoz]

There are a lot of great players who aren't considered top ten players. That is a very select group.

Kobe had everything necessary to be in that group but his shot selection keeps him out for me, and for a lot of other people too it seems.

Saying a guy isn't top 10 all time isn't like calling him a scrub but some here seem to take it that way.

[warriorfan]

There are a lot of great players who aren't considered top ten players. That is a very select group.

Kobe had everything necessary to be in that group but his shot selection keeps him out for me, and for a lot of other people too it seems.

Saying a guy isn't top 10 all time isn't like calling him a scrub but some here seem to take it that way.

That’s fair. I honestly have pretty much given up on hard rankings awhile ago. If someone has him just outside the top 10 that seems somewhat reasonable. When people start to say 15-20 it’s like c’mon now, I hope you are trolling.

[elementally morale]

There are a lot of great players who aren't considered top ten players. That is a very select group.

Kobe had everything necessary to be in that group but his shot selection keeps him out for me, and for a lot of other people too it seems.

Saying a guy isn't top 10 all time isn't like calling him a scrub but some here seem to take it that way.

Polarizing figure even in his death. That in itself is saying a lot. Most top 10 players you cannot make this long a thread about. People just don't care that much. I'm happy with my 'top 5-15 since 1980' categorization and it is especially because of what you've just reiterated: very few spots for too many greats. Does it matter if he is top 8, 12 or 17? Not really. We talk about it regardless. And it just means he was great. We care. This way or that way. I'm not sure you can ask for more as a player.

[1987_Lakers]

That’s fair. I honestly have pretty much given up on hard rankings awhile ago.

You gave up once you realized Curry would never be ranked ahead of LeBron.

[Phoenix]

So Kobe torched one of the best defenses then sputtered vs another one

Look out! Guys I think Kobe just fell out of the top 100!!!!

Except I said several pages ago that Kobe's career just from 2004-2013 post Shaq warrants top 15 status, never mind what he achieved playing with Shaq. Reacting with wild hyperbole when there's no evidence I'm hating on Kobe seems wasted energy on your part, but go for it.

[warriorfan]

Except I said several pages ago that Kobe's career just from 2004-2013 post Shaq warrants top 15 status, never mind what he achieved playing with Shaq. Reacting with wild hyperbole when there's no evidence I'm hating on Kobe seems wasted energy on your part, but go for it.

Sorry not trying to be rude but when you tried to say Detroit 04 wasn’t a goat defensive team because the spurs, felt like a troll post.

[warriorfan]

During the 2004 Pistons playoff run they gave up more than 100 points only once. (And it because the game had to go into triple overtime)

[Phoenix]

Sorry not trying to be rude but when you tried to say Detroit 04 wasn’t a goat defensive team because the spurs, felt like a troll post.

I didn't try to say anything of the sort. I said San Antonio was the number one ranked defensive team in 2004. It was tangential to the conversation when discussing Kobe's ability to attack elite defense. You determined this meant I was arguing that Detroit wasn't a GOAT defense, which wasn't even remotely inferred on my part. What I DID say/suggest/infer, is Kobe played into Detroit's GOAT defensive hands by forcing shots when you had Shaq having the relatively better offensive series. The Pistons effectively knew that Kobe would try to attack them by proving he could score on them, instead of deferring to Shaq's advantage on the inside.

[Norcaliblunt]

Most overrated overhyped media created player after Jordan and Lebron.


Curry shits all over Kobe as an actual player and career.

[Hey Yo]

During the 2004 Pistons playoff run they gave up more than 100 points only once. (And it because the game had to go into triple overtime)

But there had to be a reason why Detroit's defense was disregarded and LA was so highly favored going into the series.

[ILLsmak]

I was actually gonna type something, but I don't think it's worth it lol.

-Smak