Put DeMar DeRozan with the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls?

[3ba11]

The coach writes "get back on D" on the chalkboard for EVERYONE.... this indirect way is the only way pip makes it on the scouting report (get back on defense)... .. his actual name never appears.

[97 bulls]

^^^ Jordan won 2 titles with the most bricklaying and least spacing help ever from a sidekick, while Lebron needs goat-spacing help for his simpleton stiff-arm skillset... :








In the 97' Finals, Pippen had 4 points in 20 minutes of clutch-time, compared to 11 for Malone, 13 for Stockton, 5 for Byron Russell, and 23 for Jordan.. Even Ostertag averaged more ppg in clutch-time.

20 points from Pippen was mostly transition and then worst-ever efficiency in the halfcourt - literally - Pippen had the worst shooting splits that anyone ever had on a playoff run during the 96' and 98' Playoffs - so he was worst-ever TWICE and they were TITLE runs.

But Jordan didn't win without Pippen. And he had multiple years to do so.

[sdot_thadon]

What id like to know is since Mj could win with any "low producing bum" at PF why he didn't win with Kukoc there in 95, or with Oakley there or whomever else? He only won with Rodman and Grant. 2 all defensive team level power forwards suspiciously.....

[Axe]

What id like to know is since Mj could win with any "low producing bum" at PF why he didn't win with Kukoc there in 95, or with Oakley there or whomever else? He only won with Rodman and Grant. 2 all defensive team level power forwards suspiciously.....

Ether.

[3ba11]

But Jordan didn't win without Pippen. And he had multiple years to do so.

Everyone loses for their first few years, or at 40

So you have no case

[3ba11]

What id like to know is since Mj could win with any "low producing bum" at PF why he didn't win with Kukoc there in 95, or with Oakley there or whomever else? He only won with Rodman and Grant. 2 all defensive team level power forwards suspiciously.....

Jordan didn't win in 95' because he was coming back from baseball and his advanced stats were like his Wizards years.

And Jordan won with Oakley - he won 50 games with a rebounder like Oakley at 2nd option - that's literally goat because Lebron needed all-stars at sidekick to win 50 games, or acquisitions that were playing better than 1990 Pippen.. Lebron always had decorated teammates like Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo or Jamison, so he never won 50 with a complete bum cast like MJ had.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan didn't win in 95' because he was coming back from baseball and his advanced stats were like his Wizards years.

And Jordan won with Oakley - he won 50 games with a rebounder like Oakley at 2nd option - that's literally goat because Lebron needed all-stars at sidekick to win 50 games, or acquisitions that were playing better than 1990 Pippen.. Lebron always had decorated teammates like Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo or Jamison, so he never won 50 with a complete bum cast like MJ had.

I'd love to see the retarded look you wear on your face as you type those names with such reverence. Again apparently Mj couldn't win with "any low producing bum" at PF nor could he even make the playoffs in the weakest east ever next to good players in his later years. Stackhouse was a 2 time allstar by the time he fought over shots with MJ. And Mj had Hughes as well, threatening him to pass Mike the ball and benching him when he passed to others guys lol.

[3ba11]

I'd love to see the retarded look you wear on your face as you type those names with such reverence. Again apparently Mj couldn't win with "any low producing bum" at PF nor could he even make the playoffs in the weakest east ever next to good players in his later years. Stackhouse was a 2 time allstar by the time he fought over shots with MJ. And Mj had Hughes as well, threatening him to pass Mike the ball and benching him when he passed to others guys lol.

Again, your only argument is to knock MJ for losing when everyone loses, such as the rookie years or the fossil years at 40-year old

So you have no case

The instant MJ got 1 all-star, he was unbeatable, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple all-stars... When Lebron got "help", he mostly lost, while MJ mostly won despite having 1 less star teammate.. So it's clear as day - you fell for a fraud whose skillset cannot produce great chemistry or teams.

[sdot_thadon]

Again, your only argument is to knock MJ for losing when everyone loses, such as the rookie years or the fossil years at 40-year old

So you have no case

The instant MJ got 1 all-star, he was unbeatable, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple all-stars... When Lebron got "help", he mostly lost, while MJ mostly won despite having 1 less star teammate.. So it's clear as day - you fell for a fraud whose skillset cannot produce great chemistry or teams.

Not at all, when Mj didn't have a stud PF he couldn't win shit. Never did. Mj never won without a all nba / all defensive level co star. Or in the 2nd 3peat basically a 2nd franchise player. He never did. No other player in MJ's era enjoyed the same amount of help Jordan had. Show me the other teams in the 90s with a top shelf elite sidekick that makes the all nba and all defense team in the same season once let alone consistently. Or 1st team for both! You cant.

[3ba11]

Not at all, when Mj didn't have a stud PF he couldn't win shit

Barkley, Malone and Duncan are "stud" PF's, while Kukoc, Horace and 36-year Rodman were role players..

So Jordan won with role players at PF, while Lebron needed franchise players like Love, Bosh, or AD.

stud PF

* 36-year Rodman compares to 2010 Shaq and actually much worse (3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and he wasn't the starter in 98' Playoffs)

* Horace was an 11/8 player and destroyed by opposing frontcourts in every series - a literal punching bag... Oakley was better... Otis Thorpe was easily better.. Horry destroyed him in the 95' Finals.

Show me the other teams in the 90s with a top shelf elite sidekick that makes the all nba and all defense team in the same season once let alone consistently.

There were numerous 2nd options in the 90's that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but I'll get to that later because Jokic, Barkley, Curry, and many others are far better than Pippen despite never making All-Defense.

So all-defense is overrated in the context that we're talking about because Jordan had less defensive help overall than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th... TLDR: Jordan had less defensive and offensive help than his peers - this is the statistical and historical record.

Show me the other teams in the 90s with a top shelf elite sidekick

The 25-year old Stockton dominated Magic in the 88' Playoffs and carried the Jazz to the 97' Finals at 35, while also dominating Arenas at 40 years old in 2003... This caliber was standard for Stockton, who is the all-time leader in steals, assists and a goat-level point guard.. Pippen is nowhere near this caliber and was trash in 2003 (while Stockton was still killing at 40 and throughout his career)... This caliber matters more than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors (All-NBA voting)..

sidekick that makes the all nba and all defense team in the same season once let alone consistently.

Payton made more All-NBA and All-Defense than Pippen, while Stockton has 16 All-NBA and All-Defense (11/5), compared to Pippen's 17 (7/10)..

So that's a couple 2nd options that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but there are more that compare as well.. Larry Nance averaged 2.5 blocks for his career from the SF position, while being perennial all-defender and all-star that outplayed Pippen in the 88' and 89' Playoffs (and played pretty even in 92').. Larry Nance is a great comparison because Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Or in the 2nd 3peat basically a 2nd franchise player.

96-98' Playoffs

Pippen...... 17.6 on 41%

A franchise player is expected to produce at an elite level and therefore asked to build a team from scratch.. Pippen was never a franchise player that built anything and was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'... No one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly - the Bulls declined to 2nd Round and then borderline .500 in 1995, so Pippen was reducing the franchise instead of growing it like a real franchise player does..

After cratering a 3-peat dynasty to borderline .500, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs to get carried to another 3-peat.. This included the worst efficiency that anyone ever had in the playoffs for 2 of those runs (see chart above)... Ultimately, the statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

[sdot_thadon]

Barkley, Malone and Duncan are "stud" PF's, while Kukoc, Horace and 36-year Rodman were role players..

So Jordan won with role players at PF, while Lebron needed franchise players like Love, Bosh, or AD.







* 36-year Rodman compares to 2010 Shaq and actually much worse (3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and he wasn't the starter in 98' Playoffs)

* Horace was an 11/8 player and destroyed by opposing frontcourts in every series - a literal punching bag... Oakley was better... Otis Thorpe was easily better.. Horry destroyed him in the 95' Finals.







There were numerous 2nd options in the 90's that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but I'll get to that later because Jokic, Barkley, Curry, and many others are far better than Pippen despite never making All-Defense.

So all-defense is overrated in the context that we're talking about because Jordan had less defensive help overall than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th... TLDR: Jordan had less defensive and offensive help than his peers - this is the statistical and historical record.







The 25-year old Stockton dominated Magic in the 88' Playoffs and carried the Jazz to the 97' Finals at 35, while also dominating Arenas at 40 years old in 2003... This caliber was standard for Stockton, who is the all-time leader in steals, assists and a goat-level point guard.. Pippen is nowhere near this caliber and was trash in 2003 (while Stockton was still killing at 40 and throughout his career)... This caliber matters more than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors (All-NBA voting)..







Payton made more All-NBA and All-Defense than Pippen, while Stockton has 16 All-NBA and All-Defense (11/5), compared to Pippen's 17 (7/10)..

So that's a couple 2nd options that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but there are more that compare as well.. Larry Nance averaged 2.5 blocks for his career from the SF position, while being perennial all-defender and all-star that outplayed Pippen in the 88' and 89' Playoffs (and played pretty even in 92').. Larry Nance is a great comparison because Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

96-98' Playoffs

Pippen...... 17.6 on 41%

A franchise player is expected to produce at an elite level and therefore asked to build a team from scratch.. Pippen was never a franchise player that built anything and was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'... No one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly - the Bulls declined to 2nd Round and then borderline .500 in 1995, so Pippen was reducing the franchise instead of growing it like a real franchise player does..

After cratering a 3-peat dynasty to borderline .500, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs to get carried to another 3-peat.. This included the worst efficiency that anyone ever had in the playoffs for 2 of those runs (see chart above)... Ultimately, the statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

That awkward moment where the so called 90s basketball fan doesn't know Payton was the 1st option on his squads lol. So yeah let's continue to compare Scottie to 1st options that's where he belongs anyway. And yeah definitely a franchise guy who led a team to 55 wins and had a 3rd place mvp finish without Mj. Sidekicks don't finish 3rd in Mvp voting sir. Also knew Stockton would be the 1st name out of your mouth because he's the only one. And that said he did it 5 times, Scottie? 7. Stockton never made 1st team for both, meanwhile Scottie was 1st team all nba/all defensive 1st team the same season.....3 times. There's a whole level between Stockton and Pippen my man.

About those PF, you do realize that only 2 PF in the entire league make all defensive teams each season right? So I'd imagine having one of those 2 guys is definitely not considered having a "bum" on any level. Toni was 6th man of the year, didnt know that was a bum award too. Rodman and Grant were both vital to Chicago's title runs. Without either there isn't a chip to speak of. Never forget: MJ had the Most help, not the least.

[Hey Yo]

Rodman stealing multiple fmvp votes from MJ with his 7ppg against Seattle.

[sdot_thadon]

Rodman stealing multiple fmvp votes from MJ with his 7ppg against Seattle.

Must have been some mighty buckets lol. What a bum stealing fmvp votes from the goat.

[Hey Yo]

Must have been some mighty buckets lol. What a bum stealing fmvp votes from the goat.

Plus Kemp getting 3 votes in a losing effort.

[PeroAntic]

21 pages for an absolutely idiotic question that completely disregards defensive impact. this shithole never fails to amaze