Rip, Pierce, Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, Kawhi, Curry, KD, Booker, Jokic, Ant beat Lebron

[3ba11]

These 1st options are all ball movement players that are frequently assisted by teammates (high assisted rates) and don't rely on solo missions/unassisted buckets, aka primary ballhandling - anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, so all of the guys that beat Lebron were above 40% (listed in the thread title).

TLDR: Lebron's career shows that ball movement and skillsets that facilitate ball movement (Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird) beat ball-domination (Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden, SGA).

[rmt]

These 1st options are all ball movement players that are frequently assisted by teammates (high assisted rates) and don't rely on solo missions/unassisted buckets, aka primary ballhandling - anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, so all of the guys that beat Lebron were above 40% (listed in the thread title).

TLDR: Lebron's career shows that ball movement and skillsets that facilitate ball movement (Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird) beat ball-domination (Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden, SGA).

Does not compute.

[3ba11]

Does not compute.

Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.

[StrongLurk]

Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.

Can you show us your data point that explicitly shows Kobe's career assisted scoring rate/%? We'd also need to see Kobe's assisted scoring rate/%? for the years he made the finals.

Not saying you can't, but I have my doubts and would need clear data.

[ShawkFactory]

Can you show us your data point that explicitly shows Kobe's career assisted scoring rate/%? We'd also need to see Kobe's assisted scoring rate/%? for the years he made the finals.

Not saying you can't, but I have my doubts and would need clear data.

Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw

[SouBeachTalents]

Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw

The mental gymnastics will be amusing on this one.

[ShawkFactory]

The mental gymnastics will be amusing on this one.

Genuinely looking forward to it

[Lebron23]

John Rogers beat him 1 on 1 when Jordan was the same age as LeBron.

[FKAri]

Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.

So what you're saying is that Kobe is a bird fed loser who can't create for himself?

Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw

Never mind. It seems Kobe was a selfish, ball dominant, ball hogging, chucker, instead.

[StrongLurk]

Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw

Yeah I already knew this data which is why I called him out on it.

Would still love to see Kobe's "career" data that 3Dumb references.

[ShawkFactory]

Yeah I already knew this data which is why I called him out on it.

Would still love to see Kobe's "career" data that 3Dumb references.

You asked about Kobe's playoff assisted rates in the first run?

2000- 34.5%
2001- 38.1%
2002- 31.0%
2003- 40.1%
2004- 46.8%

Ironic that by far the highest was the year that narratively he played poorly, eh?

[HylianNightmare]

Lecantwinwithouthistoricallystackingthedeckandstil lgettinghisnumbersattheexpenseofagoodcoherantoffen se

[Jasper]

These 1st options are all ball movement players that are frequently assisted by teammates (high assisted rates) and don't rely on solo missions/unassisted buckets, aka primary ballhandling - anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, so all of the guys that beat Lebron were above 40% (listed in the thread title).

TLDR: Lebron's career shows that ball movement and skillsets that facilitate ball movement (Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird) beat ball-domination (Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden, SGA).

trailer court hate done for the day

[John8204]

The difference of course is unlike MJ with Bird Lebron also beat those guys.

Michael Jordan never won a game against Larry Bird when it counted

[3ba11]

Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw

A quick note that you agree with everything and everybody in the OP, except whether Kobe was a ball-dominator or not.. (he wasn't).

Individual playoff series mean nothing because they're opponent-specific and one-offs with high variance of results... Otoh, regular season is a massive sample against the same competition, so a player's career regular season average is the only data that is sufficiently robust to draw conclusions about the way someone plays (aka ball-dominant or not)... Again, anyone with under 40% career assisted rate is a primary ballhandler... This is true 100% of the time, so 40% is the cut-off from a career average standpoint, while an assisted rate from an individual series or playoff run can mean any number of things - i.e. Kobe was in the triangle, which doesn't use high-screen rolls, so his unassisted buckets weren't the long dribble forays of today's PNR ball-dominators, and there's a chance that the NBA was recording assists differently for that run - that's why the one-off nature of a playoff run or series means little - only a career average can tell the full story (below 40% = primary ballhandler 100% of the time).

Again, Kobe wasn't a high-scoring primary ballhandler, aka "ball-dominator", so his skillset can't be conflated with true ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, SGA, etc.. Specifically, Lebron's prime of 06' to 21' shows an assisted rate of 29-41% during the regular season (36% average) - this is a range that only primary ballhandlers have (peaking around 40%)... Meanwhile, Kobe was between 37-47% (43% average)..

Good question!

Hope that helps!

No one said that ball-domination can't win, but it can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, and it can't produce great teams, such as dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant title runs (4 losses or less)..

Neither Kobe nor Lebron won with normal rosters or produced great teams (as the leading scorer), but Kobe won with lesser franchise players, such as a Love or Bosh-level sidekick - this is a clear demonstration of Kobe's superiority because it required carrying the scoring load for entire title runs (including the championship level), which Lebron has never done.. Lebron is far too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (see the 09' ECF where his ball-domination lost as a historic favorite).