[VIDEO] Iverson's Letter to Kobe Tribute (narrated by Iverson himself)

[Meticode]

Casuals will always have Kobe ahead of Shaq

Real fans know Shaq is better.

I don't usually get into rankings discussions, but what's your personal reasoning for having Shaq over Kobe? I personally don't, but I'm curious what your argument is? They're both Top 10 players to me and Shaq is just below Kobe.

-Kobe has more rings and won more rings without Shaq vs Shaq without Kobe.
-Kobe is 4th all-time scoring, Shaq is 9th
-Kobe has 12 All-Defense Teams, Shaq has 3
-Kobe has 15 All-NBA, Shaq has 14 (Kobe 11 1st, Shaq 8 1st)
-Kobe has 18 all-star games, Shaq has 15
-Kobe has more playoff points, assists, steals and less turnovers, Shaq has more blocks, rebounds and turnovers
-Kobe has 2 Gold Medals, Shaq has 1 gold medal
-Both have 1 MVP
-Shaq has 3 FMVP, Kobe as 2 FMVP
-Kobe is universally agreed to be the 2nd best shooting guard of all time, Shaq isn't universally agreed to be the 2nd best center of all time, he's in the Top 5 though.

...are there any arguments in Shaq's favor minus when him and Kobe played together he won all the FMVP, he was the most unstoppable center of all-time, and he has more blocks and rebounds in his career?

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't usually get into rankings discussions, but what's your personal reasoning for having Shaq over Kobe? I personally don't, but I'm curious what you're argument is? They're both Top 10 players to me and Shaq is just below Kobe.

-Kobe has more rings and won more rings without Shaq vs Shaq without Kobe.
-Kobe is 4th all-time scoring, Shaq is 9th
-Kobe has 12 All-Defense Teams, Shaq has 3
-Kobe is the 2nd best shooting guard of all-time.
-Kobe has 15 All-NBA, Shaq has 14 (Kobe 11 1st, Shaq 8 1st)
-Kobe has 18 all-star games, Shaq has 15
-Kobe has more playoff points, assists, steals and less turnovers, Shaq has more blocks, rebounds and turnovers
-Kobe has 2 Gold Medals, Shaq has 1 gold medal
-Both have 1 MVP
-Shaq has 3 FMVP, Kobe as 2 FMVP
-Kobe is universally agreed to be the 2nd best shooting guard of all time, Shaq isn't universally agreed to be the 2nd best center of all time, he's in the Top 5 though.
-Shaq isn't the 2nd best center of all time.

The bolded are frankly shitty arguments. Titles won as your teams best player are infinitely more important the titles won overall. Kobe got outscored 38-16 in the Finals for one of his rings, why would I put that into consideration for who should be ranked higher.

The won more titles without is imo more due to Shaq playing with Kobe for 8 years of his absolute prime, while Kobe had nearly a decade of All-NBA caliber years to win without Shaq, roughly double the time Shaq did without Kobe.

Kobe' All-Defensive Teams are a known sham, that would indicate he was literally the greatest perimeter defender of all time, which is not even close to being the case.

If Shaq happened to play on more Olympic Teams, he would've won more Gold Medals. Melo has 3, which should tell you how much value we should place on those.

The last one is truly the worst argument, it's completely arbitrary based on other players in history who happened to play their position. Do you see Kobe ever ranked ahead of Kareem/Wilt/Russell? Of course not, which means he wouldn't be top 2 at his position if he happened to play center. Do you ever see West or Wade ranked ahead of Shaq? Of course not, which means Shaq would've been top 2 at his position if he happened to play SG.

I'm not saying you couldn't make an argument for Kobe being ranked higher, but the bolded are just really bad ways to go about it.

[GOBB]

Believing players automatically are more knowledgeable than fans is just an appeal to authority. Players have proven conclusively to have some absolutely horrendous takes, I'm not giving those validity just because they used to play. I'll always care more about the substance of the argument than the source it comes from.

Look at how the player widely considered the GOAT analyzes players, this was his breakdown when asked who's better between LeBron & Kobe.



He gave the same answer my 9 year old nephew would've come up with. Am I really supposed to give that objectively shitty take more credibility than a nuanced, detailed breakdown by someone else just because he used to play?

If MJ was a member of ISH he would give an in depth breakdown to why Kobe is better than Bron in his eyes. I think it’s overly critical over a subjective response because you expected more in the answer. That’s why MJ is where he is and we are here having this convo.

[1987_Lakers]

If MJ was a member of ISH he would give an in depth breakdown to why Kobe is better than Bron in his eyes. I think it’s overly critical over a subjective response because you expected more in the answer. That’s why MJ is where he is and we are here having this convo.

We are talking about the same guy who said he would guard LeBron by making him go left while not realizing LeBron was one of the best players at driving/finishing left.

[red1]

this was beautiful


coming from a vince carter and lebron guy aka their rivals

[GOBB]

We are talking about the same guy who said he would guard LeBron by making him go left while not realizing LeBron was one of the best players at driving/finishing left.

The announcers gush about LeBron, mentioning him in the same sentence with Jordan, who hears every word. Those words have an effect on him. He stares at the TV and points out a flaw in LeBron's game.
"I study him," he says.

When LeBron goes right, he usually drives; when he goes left, he usually shoots a jumper. It has to do with his mechanics and how he loads the ball for release. "So if I have to guard him," Jordan says, "I'm gonna push him left so nine times out of 10, he's gonna shoot a jump shot. If he goes right, he's going to the hole and I can't stop him. So I ain't letting him go right."
For the rest of the game, when LeBron gets the ball and starts his move, Jordan will call out some variation of "drive" or "shoot.

"


MJ is banking on James being more comfortable pulling up for jumpers going left vs going right where he’s attacking the rim. And MJ feels that’s unstoppable. He rather take his chances on Bron pulling up. He rather dictate that than vice versa. Easier said than done clearly. But here is a basketball player considered for more than physical gifts but mental. This is a guy who studies the game. This is a guy who has implemented what he has said in real time during games vs other great players. But ahhhh yes let’s be the typical average fan who knows more/knows it all. Who has never been in situations like this. Who has never had to manipulate/dictate a players tendencies during a game. Who simply regurgitates data someone else who never played has written. Then take that and say MJ doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The sheer audacity of the average joe bag of doughnuts. Why are you not in coaching sir? Why are you not coaching at a high level on how to defend LeBron James and others? Because you have it ALL figured out moreso than Michael Jordan who was just good at jumping dribbling and scoring. Not much else. And before you leave us you defensive savant you? Drop that mofo realgm thread to further illustrate your genius. As we all collectively sit here and say wow 1987_lakers knows how to guard LeBron James better than MJ. Once again the fan 1 ups the professional without having played. Let’s go boys!


But in a perfect world a fan would simply counter MJ and said I may explore defending him the opposite way and take my chances there instead. And how you feel the idea of forcing him less and dictating he shoots more jumpers than drives may be difficult to pull off. And depending what years we are talking about Bron matter because early bron played different as years progressed and he improved. But nonetheless this all proves how hard it is to guard Bron. That’s what a sensible fan would do. But this ain’t a perfect world so therefore? Let’s go back to option A and question Jordan’s method in guarding LeBron and and chuckle at the idea. While questioning his knowledge which then opens up discussion of him running a franchise.


You fans are full of yourselves. But this messageboard or internet is your playground. Be great in what it is you do….

[Meticode]

The bolded are frankly shitty arguments. Titles won as your teams best player are infinitely more important the titles won overall. Kobe got outscored 38-16 in the Finals for one of his rings, why would I put that into consideration for who should be ranked higher.

The won more titles without is imo more due to Shaq playing with Kobe for 8 years of his absolute prime, while Kobe had nearly a decade of All-NBA caliber years to win without Shaq, roughly double the time Shaq did without Kobe.

Kobe' All-Defensive Teams are a known sham, that would indicate he was literally the greatest perimeter defender of all time, which is not even close to being the case.

If Shaq happened to play on more Olympic Teams, he would've won more Gold Medals. Melo has 3, which should tell you how much value we should place on those.

The last one is truly the worst argument, it's completely arbitrary based on other players in history who happened to play their position. Do you see Kobe ever ranked ahead of Kareem/Wilt/Russell? Of course not, which means he wouldn't be top 2 at his position if he happened to play center. Do you ever see West or Wade ranked ahead of Shaq? Of course not, which means Shaq would've been top 2 at his position if he happened to play SG.

I'm not saying you couldn't make an argument for Kobe being ranked higher, but the bolded are just really bad ways to go about it.

Okay. Why should Shaq be ranked higher. Thanks for replying even tough it wasn't meant for you.

[1987_Lakers]

Okay. Why should Shaq be ranked higher. Thanks for replying even tough it wasn't meant for you.

For me it's his peak. You can make a strong case for Shaq having a top 3-5 peak in NBA history

This is a guy who was having Finals averages of 38/17/2/3 in 2000. 33/16/5/3 in 2001. 36/12/4/3 in 2002.

Kobe simply wasn't on that level. I also believe he didn't transform teams the way Shaq did. Past prime Shaq instantly made Miami a title contender in his first season there when Wade hadn't reached his prime yet.

Lakers record without Shaq from 2001-2004: 24-29
Lakers record without Kobe from 2001-2004: 21-12

I left off 2000 because Kobe wasn't in his prime yet, but when both players were in their prime you could see Shaq was the most valuable player on that team by far.

For what it's worth the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from 2008-2010, when the Lakers made the Finals 3 years in a row.

[Meticode]

For me it's his peak. You can make a strong case for Shaq having a top 3-5 peak in NBA history

This is a guy who was having Finals averages of 38/17/2/3 in 2000. 33/16/5/3 in 2001. 36/12/4/3 in 2002.

Kobe simply wasn't on that level. I also believe he didn't transform teams the way Shaq did. Past prime Shaq instantly made Miami a title contender in his first season there when Wade hadn't reached his prime yet.

Lakers record without Shaq from 2001-2004: 24-29
Lakers record without Kobe from 2001-2004: 21-12

I left off 2000 because Kobe wasn't in his prime yet, but when both players were in their prime you could see Shaq was the most valuable player on that team by far.

For what it's worth the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from 2008-2010, when the Lakers made the Finals 3 years in a row.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts. I appreciate it.

[gengiskhan]

I don't usually get into rankings discussions, but what's your personal reasoning for having Shaq over Kobe? I personally don't, but I'm curious what your argument is? They're both Top 10 players to me and Shaq is just below Kobe.

-Kobe has more rings and won more rings without Shaq vs Shaq without Kobe.
-Kobe is 4th all-time scoring, Shaq is 9th
-Kobe has 12 All-Defense Teams, Shaq has 3
-Kobe has 15 All-NBA, Shaq has 14 (Kobe 11 1st, Shaq 8 1st)
-Kobe has 18 all-star games, Shaq has 15
-Kobe has more playoff points, assists, steals and less turnovers, Shaq has more blocks, rebounds and turnovers
-Kobe has 2 Gold Medals, Shaq has 1 gold medal
-Both have 1 MVP
-Shaq has 3 FMVP, Kobe as 2 FMVP
-Kobe is universally agreed to be the 2nd best shooting guard of all time, Shaq isn't universally agreed to be the 2nd best center of all time, he's in the Top 5 though.

...are there any arguments in Shaq's favor minus when him and Kobe played together he won all the FMVP, he was the most unstoppable center of all-time, and he has more blocks and rebounds in his career?

bold are all dumb and stupid arguements.

how easy it is to get to All Defensive 1st and 2nd teams as SG!. There is basically ZERO competition. Kobe literally collected All Defensive teams first as a LAL, which is favored and entitled votes got him. 2nd he never CONFIRMED them with steals top 3 finishes or steals titles or 200/100 club. All Kobe 1st D team selections are a joke. Some where literally robbed from Wade because latter is HEAT not an LAL.

SHAQ dont just have 3 FMVPs. He won them DOMINANTLY. 3 Straight. the best since 1991-1993 GOAT FMVPs.
Kobe's 2010 FMVP is highly questionable. belongs to Gasol. 6/24 25%FG 2010 Game 7 is the confirmation of this.
Kobe only has 1 real weak FMVP against garbage 2009 finalist, ORL. or else, Kobe only sabotaged Shaq's 2004 FMVP and Choked away 2008 FMVP.

[jstern]

Is that you starface?

Interesting that you're asking someone if they're starface, aka Neal Romer.

[ImKobe]

For me it's his peak. You can make a strong case for Shaq having a top 3-5 peak in NBA history

This is a guy who was having Finals averages of 38/17/2/3 in 2000. 33/16/5/3 in 2001. 36/12/4/3 in 2002.

Kobe simply wasn't on that level. I also believe he didn't transform teams the way Shaq did. Past prime Shaq instantly made Miami a title contender in his first season there when Wade hadn't reached his prime yet.

Lakers record without Shaq from 2001-2004: 24-29
Lakers record without Kobe from 2001-2004: 21-12

I left off 2000 because Kobe wasn't in his prime yet, but when both players were in their prime you could see Shaq was the most valuable player on that team by far.

For what it's worth the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from 2008-2010, when the Lakers made the Finals 3 years in a row.

Lol all that and Lakers closed out two pivotal Finals road games with Shaq fouled out (2000 Game 4, 2001 Game 3), and came back on the road against the Spurs in 2001 in Game 2 to basically shut the door on the series with Shaq playing like shit and in foul trouble as well. Kobe wasn't even Kobe yet and was by far the best player on the Lakers in their most important game of the 3-Peat vs Portland in Game 7.

Shaq for years put up dominant numbers in the POs and got swept out of them, that's before KB became the most clutch player in the league and carried them in 4th quarters.

Can't have a top 3-5 peak and be a liability in clutch situations like Shaq was in his prime. Being able to close games is part of the equation and he didn't really have that part. Needed an ATG perimeter player to get him the ball and hit the big shots.

[1987_Lakers]

Can't have a top 3-5 peak and be a liability in clutch situations like Shaq was in his prime. Being able to close games is part of the equation and he didn't really have that part. Needed an ATG perimeter player to get him the ball and hit the big shots.

Speaking of being a liability in the clutch



Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game 7 stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG






Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.


22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG

3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

[1987_Lakers]

Alot of Lakers game winners in the playoffs came off a Kobe brick.

[ImKobe]

Speaking of being a liability in the clutch

Any time you reply with these I know I've won the argument.