Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[Im Still Ballin]

His shooting percentages (FG%, 2PT%, TS%) were never as high as Shaq's, Kareem's, Barkley's, Dantley's, Wilt's, Jokic's, and McHale's. And yet, he's often considered the best in the post. My personal opinion is that, while still one of the pivot greats, his post-up game was overrated due to its aesthetic appeal. No one has a prettier low-post highlight reel than The Dream.

IMO, what hurt his back-to-the-basket game was shot selection and, to a lesser degree, passing. He wasn't as good at getting the high-percentage looks, often settling for that tough baseline fadeaway jump shot. His touch in the paint was very good, but a level below Jokic, McHale, Dantley, and Kareem—the gold standards. He wasn't a huge foul drawer, and his FT% was below league average.

[Real Men Wear Green]

No.

[Carbine]

Wtf kind of thread is this?

[Im Still Ballin]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

[Kblaze8855]

Unless you have numbers that isolate actual postup shots from him facing up in the mid range, I’m not sure what those numbers really show.

When these shots don’t go in….








Is that being a worse post scorer or just a worse scorer?

Barkley and Jokic are the only ones who shot threes and other than Jokic every player you mentioned had their primes and peak before shot tracking data to say from where inside the arc shots were taken so it would be pretty hard to say definitively wouldn’t it?

[Im Still Ballin]

Unless you have numbers that isolate actual postup shots from him facing up in the mid range, I’m not sure what those numbers really show.

No play-type player-tracking data prior to 2004-05. 2PT% and TS% are good general correlates for overall scoring efficiency. They're the best we can do, and they're worth a mention. They show that Hakeem had a lower 2PT% and TS% compared to the listed players. Why is that? Was he taking more difficult shots? Was he not as good at making shots?

When these shots don’t go in….








Is that being a worse post scorer or just a worse scorer?

Both? There are definitely vague, subtle lines of demarcation between play types. e.g., what constitutes post-up play.

Barkley and Jokic are the only ones who shot threes and other than Jokic every player you mentioned had their primes and peak before shot tracking data to say from where inside the arc shots were taken so it would be pretty hard to say definitively wouldn’t it?

It would, and a discussion can be had.

[tontoz]

Hakeem is overrated in general, at least on offense. He settled for jumpers a lot and his jumper was mid.

When he was motivated and hitting his J he was incredible to watch but he wasn't a lunchpail guy who you could count on night in night out. He didnt always play well with others.

[tpols]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

Yolk out here GOATing again.

I do agree with OP that Hakeems short comings are rarely highlighted, only his success is celebrated. He doesn't get one ounce of the microscope treatment other GOATs get.

[StrongLurk]

His peak is not overrated, but his general prime years have gotten overrated recently.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yolk out here GOATing again.

I do agree with OP that Hakeems short comings are rarely highlighted, only his success is celebrated. He doesn't get one ounce of the microscope treatment other GOATs get.

Here's what the 2PT% and TS% looks like relative to league average:

Hakeem: 106 2PT+, 103 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 109 2PT+, 106 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Kareem: 119 2PT+, 114 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 112 2PT+, 109 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Shaq: 123 2PT+, 111 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 119 2PT+, 107 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Wilt: 125 2PT+, 113 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 120 2PT+, 107 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Barkley: 119 2PT+, 114 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 113 2PT+, 109 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
McHale: 113 2PT+, 112 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 114 2PT+, 115 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Dantley: 112 2PT+, 116 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 109 2PT+, 113 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Jokic: 116 2PT+, 112 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 105 2PT+, 107 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem is overrated in general, at least on offense. He settled for jumpers a lot and his jumper was mid.

When he was motivated and hitting his J he was incredible to watch but he wasn't a lunchpail guy who you could count on night in night out. He didnt always play well with others.

I would say he’s generally underrated and misunderstood. Those clips I posted. I made a while back in response to someone who was adamant that he didn’t shoot at all. That he was a strictly back to the basket post up player who would have no place in today’s league. Dude actually told me to show him five clips of Hakeem taking a midrange jump shot believing I couldn’t do it. He obviously didn’t know me at all, but he was so adamant and I was incredulous.

People legitimately don’t know shit about so many even relatively recent legends.

But I’d say he’s underrated overall because of his defense. 95% of the discussion around him is his beautiful post game when he was one of the freakiest defenders in history.

If someone wanted to argue that he was the greatest defensive player of all time once he stopped being such a foul Pro jumping jack, I might not agree, but I wouldn’t disagree enough to fight about it.

If you come up with a list of people, you think we’re better on offense the number of them who are as good on defense as well? We’re talking about top five all-time types like wilt or Jordan if you believe Jordan was as good on defense.

Maybe someone really high on David Robinson could say him as well but that’s about the worst name you can mention.

It’s hard for me to call someone overrated when they are at least a worthy nominee for the greatest player ever on defense, but they can also give you 30 something a game on a title run.

on ball in the post. Switching onto a guard if necessary. Blocking shots. Being an absolute pest off the ball. He was one of the few big men who had that Scottie Pippen move where he could transition from being posted up to fronting so fast he would steal the entry pass flat footed.

That guy was so so freakishly quick on defense for his size while also jumping out of the gym and having crazy timing blocking and changing shots.

He’s legitimately a goat tier defensive player, but his whole legacy is post moves.

[tontoz]

Thats why i specifically mentioned offense. He actually took a lot of jumpers and wasn't that good at making them. It is like he became a better offensive player after he retired and people forgot that he was frequently a black hole that bricked a lot of jumpers.

He won 1 MVP in his career and was top 3 only twice. I see people on here saying he is top 10 all time and i don't see it.

[Carbine]

It's because of his two post season runs, one of which was one of the biggest carry jobs of all time. He is one of the only players to have a claim as best offensive and best defensive player during his peak.

The players who played against him revere him. The players who played with him, perhaps even more so.

Robert Sorry "Hakeem is 100 times the player Tim was"

He played with both, at or near their peaks.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats why i specifically mentioned offense. He actually took a lot of jumpers and wasn't that good at making them. It is like he became a better offensive player after he retired and people forgot that he was frequently a black hole that bricked a lot of jumpers.

He won 1 MVP in his career and was top 3 only twice. I see people on here saying he is top 10 all time and i don't see it.

I think it’s pretty simple. There’s almost no one generally accepted in the top 10, who would appear to be on a different tier from him on the same floor. There are a few others you can say that about Who don’t generally get put up there but Moses is the only one of them who won as the man. Off the top of my head at least.

he’s justifiable just from a basketball perspective. But you add a couple rings on top of it?

Who else has the “ Well, yeah, if we’re just talking basketball…” Along with his level of winning and isn’t put up there?

Kevin Durant?

How many people we really talking about?

[L.Kizzle]

Is this a low-key Kevin McHale boost thread, looks like it.