Is Gary Payton somewhat overrated as a defender?

[3ba11]

Just see if anyone busted Payton's ass in the PO

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Ben wallace was another overrated defender that got put on that list. He had Rasheed next to him who was a much better man 2 man defender and locked down Duncan. I don't remember one memorable moment from Ben Wallace during his bulls run

[ELITEpower23]

Hard to rank a 6'2 defender that high up.

[MadDog]

Only by casuals who put his defense up there with all-time bigs. When Payton is talked about with the likes of Ben Wallace, KG, Robinson & Hakeem then ya. He gets overrated. Overall though he's one of the goat defensive pgs - obviously.

[iamgine]

At the same time how many times have you seen a great man defender lock up a great offensive player? Doesn't happen very often.

For example PJ Tucker played some amazing man defense on Durant in the playoffs last year and it didn't seem to effect KD too much, he was still cooking out there.

I said slow down. No one can 'lock up' great offensive player. At least not consistently.

[WhiteKyrie]

Ben wallace was another overrated defender that got put on that list. He had Rasheed next to him who was a much better man 2 man defender and locked down Duncan. I don't remember one memorable moment from Ben Wallace during his bulls run

He was the anchor as a rebounder and shot blocker before Sheed. But no, he wasn’t the lengthy man to man defender Sheed was. By the time he was on the Bulls he was well past his prime.

[PeroAntic]

There are different styles of defending which can be equally effective. Kidd was a general and Payton was a pest. but elite man to man defense if youre guarding the opponent's best player has bigger value so I take Payton.

[imdaman99]

Didn't he get outplayed by Robert Pack, losing to the 8th seed? I do remember him locking up Stockton in many playoff games though.

Also remember this, white chocolate

[kawhileonard2]

I agree. IMO the best defensive point guard of alltime is Lebron.

Dude gets worked over like a burger and fry.

[1987_Lakers]

1996 Sonics

DRTG
Shawn Kemp: 97
Nate McMillan: 98
Gary Payton: 102

Defensive win shares
Shawn Kemp: 6.1
Gary Payton: 5.6

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Nate McMillan: 4.2
Gary Payton: 1.8

Pretty insane that the DPOY didn't lead his team in any of these categories.

[Phoenix]

1996 Sonics

DRTG
Shawn Kemp: 97
Nate McMillan: 98
Gary Payton: 102

Defensive win shares
Shawn Kemp: 6.1
Gary Payton: 5.6

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Nate McMillan: 4.2
Gary Payton: 1.8

Pretty insane that the DPOY didn't lead his team in any of these categories.

I think it's insane that any non-big was winning DPOY in this period. With prime Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning in the league?

[Wally450]

I didn't watch Payton in his prime, but a guy who's nick name is The Glove, he has to be well respected as a defender.

[Xiao Yao You]

I think it's insane that any non-big was winning DPOY in this period. With prime Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning in the league?

They were voted on by steals blocks reputation and team d. Advanced stats werent around

[1987_Lakers]

I think it's insane that any non-big was winning DPOY in this period. With prime Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning in the league?

After a quick search. Payton, Smart, & Cooper in their DPOY seasons also did not lead their team in those 3 advanced defensive metrics I just posted. Which seems about right, all 3 were known for their man defense and defensive guards who specialize in man defense doesn't really show in advanced stats. There is no stat to track man defense & wing defenders who are mostly man defenders usually have limited impact compared to bigs who can patrol the paint.

[Phoenix]

They were voted on by steals blocks reputation and team d. Advanced stats werent around

Centers of the caliber I mentioned very clearly had greater visible impact on team defenses, even without advanced stats. It makes even less sense from an era context because shutting down the paint was more important than some defensive pest on the perimeter( not saying that wasn't important, just not as much). Someone pulling down a dozen boards and 3-4 blocks a game in the 90s had to have more defensive impact just by how the game was played. I would say Pippen had better metrics akin to a defensive big in 95 if they wanted to go with a perimeter player( 2nd in defensive win shares, third in Def. box plus/minus, 1st in overall defensive rating) but they went with Mutumbo. If anything, Scottie should have been 95 DPOY and David Robinson in 96 ( he was first in all those aforementioned metrics).