Lebron shot 35 percent in the 2007 Finals?!!!

[StrongLurk]

Lebron was trash in 07 finals.

If he played well but still lost, then he'd have some leeway.

But he was ULTRA dog doodoo. Lebron is my guy but I can't stand the way people mythologize the 07 run. It was a pre-prime Lebron who played well before the finals and had a legendary game 5 against the Pistons...but the comp was objectively poor and he completely shit the bed in the finals. There is no defending that level of poor play, under any circumstance, if you are supposed to be a top 5 player in the league and healthy at the time too.

[Tavr]

It has everything to do with it. Larry Hughes isnt some all time legend but he was Lebron's 2nd option. Find me a team that won a title without ots 2nd option. Find me a team that was able to win with the 2nd option at 13ppg in the finals. You have to go all the way back to Dream's 94 Rockets and fun fact another team that had such weak support from the 2nd option was none other than MJs stiffest competition the 98 Jazz, Hornacek poured in a whopping 10ppg as the 2nd option. Who's supposed to win like that?

Not speaking for that poster, but I don't think mentioning LeBron's production and putrid efficiency is equivalent to "winning the finals". LeBron gets credit for his series against Detroit (Larry Hughes was a complete no show in that series), so he should still get flack for his poor finals play. Kobe at the same age got dragged (and still does) for being "carried by Shaq" in 2000, but Kobe was also legitimately hurt and actually missed games in those finals. I'm just saying...can we be consistent?

Regarding your 2011 question. By a superstar standard, how do you overcome LeBron's massive and unanticipated dropoff? You cannot be arguably your teams best player and have complete no shows in 4th quarters, especially in games decided by a few points. I'm not going to question Wade or Bosh here, I don't even think actual Miami Heat fans do.

Lebron was trash in 07 finals.

If he played well but still lost, then he'd have some leeway.

But he was ULTRA dog doodoo. Lebron is my guy but I can't stand the way people mythologize the 07 run. It was a pre-prime Lebron who played well before the finals and had a legendary game 5 against the Pistons...but the comp was objectively poor and he completely shit the bed in the finals. There is no defending that level of poor play, under any circumstance, if you are supposed to be a top 5 player in the league and healthy at the time too.

Great objectivity

[3ba11]

Lebron is the only player in history to shoot 35% with 6 TO's per game in a series - it's the worst chucking and turnovers that the game has ever seen.. Then he repeated this in 2008 with 35% and 5 TO's against the Celtics, which caused loss in a winnable, 7-game series.. Meanwhile, 22-year old Kobe and Amare dominated the Spurs with goat stats in 02' and 05', respectively..

Young Lebron simply couldn't shoot and wasn't aware that it was legal to turn his back to the basket (no post game whatsoever).. And old Lebron is too slow.. i.e. ball-domination is bad enough, but slow ball-domination is even worse.. Slow ball-domination can't wear out a defense, so his teams face fresh opponents and therefore have max defensive requirements at all times..

So it matters little that Lebron is more controlled, aka slower - the faster ball-dominator is better.. And it's still ball-dominance, so he still can't score off screens to facilitate a real halfcourt offense.. Even his attempt at "off-ball" and more assisted buckets alongside Luka was massively negative and it was described by the T'Wolves coach as "looking to go downhill upon the catch", aka still ball-dominant.. It got exposed in the playoffs by the young T'Wolves, who then got demolished by OKC.

[FKAri]

Not according to bbref. It says he shot 2007% in the 35 finals.

[sdot_thadon]

Not speaking for that poster, but I don't think mentioning LeBron's production and putrid efficiency is equivalent to "winning the finals". LeBron gets credit for his series against Detroit (Larry Hughes was a complete no show in that series), so he should still get flack for his poor finals play. Kobe at the same age got dragged (and still does) for being "carried by Shaq" in 2000, but Kobe was also legitimately hurt and actually missed games in those finals. I'm just saying...can we be consistent?

Regarding your 2011 question. By a superstar standard, how do you overcome LeBron's massive and unanticipated dropoff? You cannot be arguably your teams best player and have complete no shows in 4th quarters, especially in games decided by a few points. I'm not going to question Wade or Bosh here, I don't even think actual Miami Heat fans do.

Here's the thing I dont disagree that he was bad in 2007. Im just adding perspective, my personal opinion is Pop watched that game 5 vs Detroit and said screw that, not happening to us. He bet on Lebrons streaky shooting not holding up and it worked. They showed him several players whenever he got the ball, sometimes a wall. Those guys didn't have to worry about anyone else because there wasn't another threat on the floor. Thats all im saying. If he had anyone that could take a bit of attention his life woulda been easier that finals. Who knows maybe Hughes would have slowed Parker some and made the series even closer and more winnable.

And about Kobe....im not one to trash his 2000 finals. My only gripe is when people use that title as if he wasn't the sidekick there. And I didn't fault Bosh or Wade for any shortcomings in Miamis run, it is what it is. These things only get pointed out in the face of the heat being a voltron team for 4 years that failed.

[Tavr]

Here's the thing I dont disagree that he was bad in 2007. Im just adding perspective, my personal opinion is Pop watched that game 5 vs Detroit and said screw that, not happening to us. He bet on Lebrons streaky shooting not holding up and it worked. They showed him several players whenever he got the ball, sometimes a wall. Those guys didn't have to worry about anyone else because there wasn't another threat on the floor. Thats all im saying. If he had anyone that could take a bit of attention his life woulda been easier that finals. Who knows maybe Hughes would have slowed Parker some and made the series even closer and more winnable.

Yeah that's fair, and I more or less agree with your analysis. I'm just trying to figure out if we (not you in particular but generally speaking) hold these players to the same standard. Like most people, I'm of the opinion LeBron had weaknesses in his game and absolutely should have played better in that finals. Do the Cavs win the series if he does? Highly doubtful. The point is though we can only judge an individual based on his performance.

And about Kobe....im not one to trash his 2000 finals. My only gripe is when people use that title as if he wasn't the sidekick there. And I didn't fault Bosh or Wade for any shortcomings in Miamis run, it is what it is. These things only get pointed out in the face of the heat being a voltron team for 4 years that failed.

Don't know many people who think Shaq and Kobe were 1A/B in 2000. Kobe was quite clearly #2 during that run. From 2001 and on though I get why Kobe fans debate the "carried by Shaq" and "sidekick" stuff. With that Miami superteam, I actually thought Wade could have played better in 2014. His fans claim he was playing hurt, but to me he just simply had a poor finals. No shame in that either. Many greats have underperformed on that stage.

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs


The Spurs exposed that a 22 on 35% player won the weakest East ever.

And Lebron can't handle max defensive attention, aka carrying the scoring load - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams)

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs


The Spurs exposed that a 22 on 35% player won the weakest East ever.

And Lebron can't handle max defensive attention, aka carrying the scoring load - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams)

Stats at 22 years old vs Duncan's Spurs

01' Kobe vs Spurs........ 33 on 53%
05' Amare vs Spurs...... 37 on 55%
07' Lebron vs Spurs...... 22 on 35%

^^^ one of them doesn't belong

Lebron also shot 35% in the 08' ECSF

Also, the Cavs lost 3 fourth quarter leads in the 07' Finals, so 30 on 45% from lebron easily wins

[tpols]

Stats at 22 years old vs Duncan's Spurs

01' Kobe vs Spurs........ 33 on 53%
05' Amare vs Spurs...... 37 on 55%
07' Lebron vs Spurs...... 22 on 35%

^^^ one of them doesn't belong

Lebron also shot 35% in the 08' ECSF

Also, the Cavs lost 3 fourth quarter leads in the 07' Finals, so 30 on 45% from lebron easily wins

Young prime Lebron had an extremely exploitable weakness as he had beginner level confidence in his jumper. Kobe otoh his bread and butter was the jumper and fundamentals and then he just sprinkled elite athleticism on top of it dunking in Robinson and Duncan's grills. No weaknesses to exploit.