+2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not lebron

[Phoenix]

Again, all those guys are 1st options.. None of them are 2nd options like Klay or Pippen, so I'm fine taking the win on that... Ultimately, you provided 4 examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with losing teams, while it's common for 1st options to get All-NBA with 20-40 win teams.. It's happened dozens of times.

So the point remains that 2nd options like Klay and Pippen need winning spotlight to get All-NBA - they wouldn't get anything if they were barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards... They'd be like any bum 20 ppg scorer that doesn't get no accolades (i.e. Kuzma).

Again, those players were 2nd options the years I mentioned for those all-NBA selections, so I'm fine taking the win as well. Ultimately you've only provided 1 example, Richmond, of first option all-NBA teamers on 20-30 wins teams so you saying there are tons of players and happened 'dozens of times' isn't anything you've substantiated. I spotted you Tmac, because you needed the boost. Love's all-nba on the Wolves in 2012 came during a lockout year so doesn't really count. So your list is only two as of now with 'dozens' or 'tons' of other examples you can't provide despite being asked multiple times, so I win simply by default. It doesn't matter if I had 4 examples, 10 examples, or 1 example, because you said this:

but the reality is that I'm struggling to find any 2nd options that made All-NBA with even like 40 wins

Even with your flaccid attempts to discredit some of my list, 4 is still more than you've provided. Ultimately whats a 'real' 2nd option ain't up to you or what legitimizes someone on the all-NBA team that doesn't adhere to your 'first option' narrative. You can slice it anyway you like, defensive players, 2nd options...it doesn't matter. Guys like Bogut and Drummond were among the scoring leaders on their teams so being a 'defensive' big doesn't disqualify them. And don't' think I didn't notice your sleight of hand not mentioning Sabonis.

Oh by the way, since I showed above that every single member of the 2025 all-NBA team won at least 44 games this year, tomorrow I"m going to start dropping all-NBA teams going back several years. Let's see how 'common' first options getting all-NBA on sub 40 teams really is, per your comments.

[Phoenix]

2024 All NBA teams


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)

2nd Team

Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)

3rd Team

Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)

[ShawkFactory]

2024 All NBA teams


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)

2nd Team

Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)

3rd Team

Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)

That only happened because of the winning spotlight.

And before you try to refute me...a second option CANNOT play the game in such a way, regardless of stats, that makes a team better. They're all garbage dudes getting carried.

[Phoenix]

2023 All-NBA


Giannis Antetokounmpo (58)
Luka Dončić (38) played 66 games
Joel Embiid (54)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (40)
Jayson Tatum (57)

2nd Team

Jaylen Brown (57)
Jimmy Butler (44)
Stephen Curry (44)
Nikola Jokić (53)
Donovan Mitchell (51)

3rd Team

De'Aaron Fox (48)
LeBron James (43)
Damian Lillard (33) played 58 games
Julius Randle (47)
Domantas Sabonis (48)

[Phoenix]

That only happened because of the winning spotlight.

And before you try to refute me...a second option CANNOT play the game in such a way, regardless of stats, that makes a team better. They're all garbage dudes getting carried.

[Phoenix]

2022 All-NBA team


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (51)
Devin Booker (64)
Luka Dončić (52)
Nikola Jokić (48)
Jayson Tatum (51)

2nd Team

Stephen Curry (53)
DeMar DeRozan (46)
Kevin Durant (44)
Joel Embiid (51)
Ja Morant (56)

3rd Team

LeBron James (33) played 56 games
Chris Paul (64)
Pascal Siakam (48)
Karl-Anthony Towns (46)
Trae Young (43)

[Phoenix]

2021 all-nba ( 72 game season)

1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (46)
Stephen Curry (39) played 63 games
Luka Dončić (42)
Nikola Jokić (47)
Kawhi Leonard

2nd Team

Joel Embiid (49)
LeBron James (42)
Damian Lillard (42)
Chris Paul (51)
Julius Randle (41)

3rd Team

Bradley Beal (34) played 60 games
Jimmy Butler (40)
Paul George (47)
Rudy Gobert (52)
Kyrie Irving (46)

[Phoenix]

So of the last 5 all-NBA teams, the only players first option, second option, defensive player, whatever....who didn't win 40 games were:

2023:
Luka who missed 16 games and won 38
Dame who missed 24 games and won 33

2022:
Lebron who missed 26 games and won 33


2021( 72 game season):
Steph who missed 9 games but the final record was 39-33 so a winning season regardless
Beal who missed 12 games and won 34, averaged 31.3 so no way he's not getting voted in


Suffice to say, Richmond playing 78 games and winning 27 like he did in 94 ain't getting an all-NBA nod nowadays. 2004 Tmac winning 21 ain't cutting it either.

Oh BTW, can someone please give Jamal Murray some winning spotlight love FFS? Dude averages 20+ every season, 26 on a title run, team wins 50 games practically every year and he can't even get into the all-star game?

[3ba11]

.
.
All-NBA selections that won 20-40 games since 1980 (2nd options in bold)

1980 Dantley - 24 wins
1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1982 Dantley - 25 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
1986 Robertson - 35 wins
1987 Lever - 37 wins
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
1992 Willis - 34 wins
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Dominique - 27 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2005 Lebron - 35 wins
2012 Chandler - 36 wins
2012 Melo - 36 wins
2012 Love - 26 wins
2012 Dwight - 37 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins

CONCLUSION: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years.. They need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their dominance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely dominate enough to make All-NBA with losing teams... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.

[Phoenix]

.
.
All-NBA selections that won 20-40 games since 1980 (2nd options in bold)


1980 Dantley - 24 wins Didn't make all-nba team that year
1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1982 Dantley - 25 wins Didn't make all-nba team that year
1983 Isiah - 37 wins 2nd option at 22.9ppg, first option was Kelly Tripucka at 26.5ppg. Argument for me
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
1986 Robertson - 35 wins
1987 Lever - 37 wins
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins missed 18 games
1992 Willis - 34 wins
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Dominique - 27 wins played 49 games for Hawks, and 25 games for the Clippers, won 42 between the two teams.
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2005 Lebron - 35 wins [B]Cavs won 42 games in 2005[/B]
2012 Chandler - 36 wins lockout year,thanks for including him as a defensive big, argument for me
2012 Melo - 36 wins lockout year
2012 Love - 26 wins lockout year
2012 Dwight - 37 wins missed 28 games, would have easily won 40+ otherwise
2015 Cousins - 29 wins missed 23 games
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins lockdown, suspended season
2023 Luka - 38 wins missed 16 games or would have won 40+


CONCLUSION: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years.. They need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their dominance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely dominate enough to make All-NBA with losing teams... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.

So let's see:

- You lied about Adrian Dantley, he didn't make all-NBA in 80 and 82. Off the list those years
- Isiah was 2nd option to Tripucka in 83, so that argument works for me thanks
- Dominique won 42 wins in 94 per basketball reference, playing 25 for the Clips and 49 for ATL. Nice try, he's off the list.
- Lebron won 42 games in 2004-2005. The 35 wins you're giving his is for his rookie year. Off the list
- 2012 Chandler is a defensive big,so since you count him you've legitimized guys like Bogut, Drummond, Mutumbo, Horford, thanks
- 2012 is also a asterisk year due to lockout, 66 game season but the Knicks were 36-30 so Melo/Chandler had a winning season that year. Nice try
- Dwight missed 28 games and missed out on 40 wins by 3 games.
- 2020 was a shortened season due to lockdowns, asterisk
- Luka missed out on 40 wins by 2 wins, missing 16 games

CONCLUSION: You lied about Adrian Dantley in 1980 and 82 being all-NBA those years, Isiah was 2nd option to Tripucka in 83, lied about 94 Nique who got 42 total wins playing for both the Hawks( 49) and the Clippers( 25) and you sneakily gave him the Clips 27 win total when he didn't even play that many games for LA , lied about Lebron giving his rookie win total of 35 wins instead of 42 in 2005 when he made 2nd team, ignore that 2012 was a 66 game lockout year and then pretend like Melo and Chandler didn't have a winning record at 36/30, 2020 was pandemic year shortened season, and Luka wins 40+ if he didn't miss 16 games.

So, your actual list of first options for which you didn't lie( 80 and 82 Dantley, 94 Wilkins, 05 Lebron), not note legit asterisks for why a player wouldn't have easily broke 40 wins( Luka 2023) if not for serious time missed to injury or shortened seasons( Melo 2012, Dame 2020), meaning the player played the majority of the year and wouldn't have gotten 40 wins because the team just was that bad/mediocre:

- Adrian Dantley 82
- Jordan 85
- Mullin 90
- Richmond 94-98( which is actually one player just getting in multiple times instead of multiple players, but I'll play along)'
- Maybury 2000
- Tmac 2004
- Cousins 2015
- Cousins 2016 won 33 whlle missing 17, but we'll let that one slip
- AD 2017
- Kemba 2020

That's very far from there being 'tons' of first options who made all-nba with 20-40 wins, and that's if you include players who missed 16-28 games and act like they wouldn't have won 40 games in some cases,weren't impacted by lockout, or ignore that a few players happened to benefit from periods of weak positional competition ( Richmond winning 27 games, for example) that largely wouldn't fly today. Heaps of context needed here that you conveniently omit.

OTOH 83 Isiah can now be added to my list of non-first option players so you'll appreciate me bolding him, who made all-NBA without 'winning spotlight' inflation like 85 Alvin Robertson,87 Fat Lever, 92 Kevin Willis, 93 Derrick Coleman, 93 Hardaway( bolded him as well for your convenience),96 Juwan Howard,97 Vin Baker, 98 Rod Strickland, 02 Mutumbo( defensive centric big like CHandler), 06 Yao Ming, 2013 David Lee, 2016 Andre Drummond( defensive big like Chandler), 2018 KAT, 2011 Horford( defensive big like CHandler), 2023/2024 Sabonis. These players were either 2nd option/scorer for the years I listed, or 2nd/3rd best player like a Mutumbo or Strickland type BUT more specifically, were not the defacto first options for those years. If they were definitive first option in other years, like Coleman in 94, doesn't dismiss that he was 2nd option to Petrovic in 93. Furthermore the lists provided here by both of us, regardless of how certain players are described for the purpose of our respective arguments, show recent voting patterns clearly indicating that players getting all-NBA whether they be first or 2nd option on sub 40 win teams is becoming even less common in recent years, let alone over history. The historical record of the past 5 seasons as I listed shows that outside of Luka in 2023 getting 38 wins while missing 16 games, Kemba in 2019, and 2020 Dame in a lockout year, the voters aren't handing out all-NBA awards like candy to sub 40 win players. There's no Mitch Richmonds getting all-nba for 27 wins in the year 2025, not when over the past 5-6 years Devin Booker has seasons averaging 26-28 on 50 win teams and doesn't touch all-NBA.

[1987_Lakers]

Can't believe 3ball really used 2012, does he not know it was a lockout year?

And lying about Dantley making All-NBA in '80 & '82.

This is why nobody takes him seriously.

[Phoenix]

Can't believe 3ball really used 2012, does he not know it was a lockout year?

And lying about Dantley making All-NBA in '80 & '82.

This is why nobody takes him seriously.

Of course he knows. He also knows 2020 was the suspended covid year. And he knows Nique played for both the Hawks and Clippers in 94, but thought he'd use the Clippers win total of 27( hilarious because he didn't even play that many games for the Clippers that year) and hoped no-one would notice. These aren't errors, they're blatant lies or just disingenuous trolling.

[sdot_thadon]

His threads all go to shit with even low effort fact checking. Theres wrong numbers and claims in every single post. Who' the hell signs up to look like such an idiot for such a high volume of posts?

[SouBeachTalents]

Of course he knows. He also knows 2020 was the suspended covid year. And he knows Nique played for both the Hawks and Clippers in 94, but thought he'd use the Clippers win total of 27( hilarious because he didn't even play that many games for the Clippers that year) and hoped no-one would notice. These aren't errors, they're blatant lies or just disingenuous trolling.

There are a number of reasons 3ball is a fakkit, but besides the repetitiveness of the topic, it's the fact he just shamelessly lies in so many of his posts. It's bitch made behavior.

[tpols]

2024 All NBA teams


1st Team

Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)

2nd Team

Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)

3rd Team

Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)

All of the perimeter players on this list are clearly better than prime Klay. I would've said it was close with Haliburton but after his playoff run hell nah. Klay never came close to doing the shit he did over and over and over. So he wouldn't have made All NBA in that year.