09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

[warriorfan]

I mean...look at it this way. If Mo fvcking Williams was all it took then it doesn't quite make the point he thinks

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing

Bron would do his “need more playmakers” complaint that we heard when he joined the Lakers

[ShawkFactory]

Bron would do his “need more playmakers” complaint that we heard when he joined the Lakers

There wasn't a Klay Thompson on the '18 Cavs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh I see so it's SPECIFICALLY Mo Williams. Only Mo.

Holy shit you've always been a huge correlation = causation guy but this shit is next level

Mo Williams was the true engine of those Cavs teams, hence the 7-27 record they had in games he played in 2011.

[sdot_thadon]

Mo Williams was the true engine of those Cavs teams, hence the 7-27 record they had in games he played in 2011.

No no you got it all wrong his prime had been used up by the following season. Everyone's prime ends the second they arent Lebrons teammate any longer.

[sdot_thadon]

Mo was growing each year before joining Lebron, and then his career was cut short by injures after Lebron left - that's obvious and common knowledge.

But Lebron still caught the best version of Mo and became the league favorite with him, but he lost as an OKC-level favorite to the Magic... Even Lebron himself says that he "f*cked up" and should've won that series.. The Cavs had the #3 defense and Mo provided 18 on 38%, but Lebron couldn't win with this, even though Jordan always did.... Lebron has always needed more scoring help because he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

And again, the answer to your question of "why didn't Player X win without Lebron" is that they sacrificed their prime for Lebron, and never played with other superstars after Lebron left, while Lebron has 15 seasons with other superstars like Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka, and more (Ingram, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).. This is the most help than anyone ever had.

Its a miracle the only player in history to get teammates primes is Lebron right. Not a bald guy with a perennial all nba all defensive sidekick in the 90s right? An all defensive 3rd option with goggles maybe? Then a dye jobbed all defensive team rebounding champ who was was dpoy?

[warriorfan]

Its a miracle the only player in history to get teammates primes is Lebron right. Not a bald guy with a perennial all nba all defensive sidekick in the 90s right? An all defensive 3rd option with goggles maybe? Then a dye jobbed all defensive team rebounding champ who was was dpoy?

Sorry, Lebron stans already debunked the all defensive team as being a dumb voting process and not legit while you spent years trying to discredit kobe

You can’t claim all defense teams mean nothing for years then turn around and keep trying to use it as a talking point for supporting cast members of a player who you are threatened by


Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

[sdot_thadon]

Sorry, Lebron stans already debunked the all defensive team as being a dumb voting process and not legit while you spent years trying to discredit kobe

You can’t claim all defense teams mean nothing for years then turn around and keep trying to use it as a talking point for supporting cast members of a player who you are threatened by


Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

You've never seen me type the words all defense means nothing. I dont ever try to exclude a player's accomplishments. Did Kobe not live up to the standard for those last few 1st teams on defense? Probably not, but it is what it is. Other people with the desire have already dove into the numbers and come to those conclusions.

[warriorfan]

You've never seen me type the words all defense means nothing. I dont ever try to exclude a player's accomplishments. Did Kobe not live up to the standard for those last few 1st teams on defense? Probably not, but it is what it is. Other people with the desire have already dove into the numbers and come to those conclusions.

Kobe > Bron

there’s two sides of the ball and bron has coasted his entire life on that side. Kobe > Bron as a complete basketball player, Deal with it homie.

Either fade bron for not making defense teams or fade kobe for making making teams but when he does it it’s “fraudulent”(while simultaneously not fading teammates on dudes who you think threaten bron’s legacy)

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

Not trying to be a dick but make like a tree and get the f. uck out of here

[sdot_thadon]

Kobe > Bron

there’s two sides of the ball and bron has coasted his entire life on that side. Kobe > Bron as a complete basketball player, Deal with it homie.

Either fade bron for not making defense teams or fade kobe for making making teams but when he does it it’s “fraudulent”(while simultaneously not fading teammates on dudes who you think threaten bron’s legacy)

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

Not trying to be a dick but make like a tree and get the f. uck out of here

There it is. You finally said what you wanted to say the whole time. Im proud of you. Unfortunately not many people agree, sadly I dont agree with you either. And like I said Ive never tried to remove any accomplishment from a debate or remove any player. Kobe was great, I was a fan day one. Lebron can do so many things Kobe simply couldn't do. Even with all those defensive team selections Lebron's defense at his peak was a level above Kobe's. Kobe was a great man defender that coasted in his later years even though he was still getting all defense nods. When he turned it on he could still defend at a high level just like what we've seen from LeBron towards the end of his prime on. I dont get why Kobe stans gotta be so angry and defensive over Lebron its weird af. Yall mu****as play better d than he ever did.

And im the biased one when all i really debate here is whether or not we judge everyone with the same scale. You clearly are emotionally upset over a basketball player. That must be that Mamba Mentality kicking in. I bet you were jutting your chin out as you typed that, how cute

[3ba11]

There it is. You finally said what you wanted to say the whole time. Im proud of you. Unfortunately not many people agree,

except all the players

Lebron can do so many things Kobe simply couldn't do.

and vice versa.

kobe had great mid-range, so he could shoot over packed paints and didn't need spacing like LeDrive does.

Kobe could also score off screens and facilitate great ball movement..

this matters because it means he maintained brand of ball at high scoring levels and therefore carry the scoring load against top teams... the ability to carry the "star" category of scoring allows GM's to get defensive help.. So lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevented elite roster construction, while his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampered roster construction and player development

Successfully carrying the scoring load on the championship level = defeating max defensive attention... kobe did this and lebron didn't.

[Axe]

2016 klay was a very useful help to his own team bt.

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

[3ba11]

.
.
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER


Thread Cliffs

By virtue of Klay being a much lower producer than guys like Hornacek or 09' Mo, Curry carried his team more than 09' Lebron.. So Curry should get credit for carrying a 1-man team just like Lebron or 07' Dirk.

The Curry Warriors were a 1-man team just like the 09' Cavs or 07' Mavs but the media misreported the team - they reported a +2800 preseason underdog roster as a "stacked" team after they won 67/73 games.. i.e. the biggest surprise team ever was suddenly "stacked", even though the sidekick was a low producer and lower than Hornacek/09' Mo

[Carbine]

You don't make much sense.

Regular season BPM had Dray at 5.5, Curry at 12. That's a 6.5 BPM difference in the regular season......

Lebron was 13.2 BPM and Mo was second on the team at 2.3 BPM a difference of 11 BPM

Playoffs are even more staggering.

Curry was 7 to Draymonds 5.2

Lebron was 18.5 to Ben Wallace 1.........

By your own numbers and arguments.... This is a joke. In favor of Lebron.

[Carbine]

Curry VORP 9.5
Draymond 5.3

Playoffs:

Curry 1.4
Draymond 1.7


Lebron VORP 11.8
Mo 3.1

Playoffs

Lebron 2.9
West 0.4



It just keeps getting worse for Curry and better for Lebron with the numbers you want to use. I want my time back....

[warriorfan]

Curry VORP 9.5
Draymond 5.3

Playoffs:

Curry 1.4
Draymond 1.7


Lebron VORP 11.8
Mo 3.1

Playoffs

Lebron 2.9
West 0.4



It just keeps getting worse for Curry and better for Lebron with the numbers you want to use. I want my time back....

Vorp is accumulating stat. More games you play, more mins you play, more vorp you get.

If you notice 3Ball doesn’t usually fall back on one metric which can always have flaws. There is no perfect metric. That is why we use a combination of them and take into account context to make an accurate judgement of performance.


Props to op for groundbreaking and narrative breaking content.