Is Donovan Mitchell still a superstar? Cuz AR does what he does but passes better

[GOBB]

Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.

Where is white vs black? You dudes just be typing up a bunch of nonsense.

[GOBB]

It's a GimmeThat alt, the manic posting is a dead giveaway.

Dudes are weird having numerous alts.

“Yes or No”

Should probably be named No Social Skills.

[Full Court]

So what does that make Reaves?

I tried to tell people one dimensional scorers arent the commodity they used to be.

I told people Mitchell wasnt gonna put the Cavs over the top. Hes not very big, hes not a great passer, defender, off ball player. He takes a lot of shots and scores volume on decent efficiency. Thats not a max salary best player in a title team caliber guy.

But you guys didnt believe me. You insisted Spida was a bonafide superstar.

So now you have to call Reaves the same thing.

Which you wont, youll retreat into the background and act like you never had the opinions that you did. Instead of just admitting you didnt see something the right way.



See, this is why I expect to get paid to give opinions. Because mine are better.

The greater point that OP is missing here is that Lebron has not one, but TWO superstar-level teammates for help.

[ImKobe]

The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.

From AD's last game to the end of the RS (33 games) he averaged 22.6/4.9/5.3 on 48/39/91 splits. He definitely was better than Mitchell in the last 2-3 months of the RS.

[Kblaze8855]

If you take a few games at face value then you obviously can’t limit it to Mitchell. If you are what you are for a week, he isn’t Mitchell. He’s Luka.

The problem is plenty of guys like Flip Murray, Jeremy Lin, And the lake have shown what we already know. Everyone in the NBA is great and most of them spent their entire lives as go to scorers. If you just let them do whatever the hell they want they can put up numbers for a while.

The difference between those guys and the Hall of Fame they can stand in for At times when they’re out It’s over months and years teams figure out what superstars want to do and still can’t do anything about it. You can give Marcus Pfizer the ball and have everyone get the hell out of the way. He would give you 2020 years ago. I had the tremendous pace of these days and the defenses being intentionally weakened On top of everyone being able to shoot, which limits double teams?

That 20 creeps up quite a bit.

But in time they realize You only do two things well They completely take one away and have all five people on the court trained to limit your other one.

So you get guys like flip Murray stand in for Ray Allen for two weeks and I’m on here reading that they should trade Ray Allen for a young big and let flip lead the sonics, Or Chris Paul twist his ankle and we have Darren Collision putting up 20 and 11 while people act like it was a system making Paul an MVP candidate, And Jeremy Lin without Carmelo and with a hobbled Amare out there with unchecked control and an incomplete scouting report getting legitimate TV specials produced.

then you never hear from Flip Murray again Darren Collison turns out to be Darren Collison. Jeremy Lin gets a contract with the Rockets and turns into David Wesley and we have to watch version 56 of it in this era which is even more friendly to a talented guard allowed sudden ball dominance when the team stars aren’t present to play the kind of game the team actually wants to play.

Long story Medium?

I don’t know what Reeves is, and you don’t either Because a good hundred guys in the league can go crazy under these circumstances.

You won’t know what he is until 90 video scouts have poured over every shot attempt of his season And given the specifics to the appropriate assistant coach who comes up with a plan to either stop it or let him do it to the detriment of the entire team and then that coach and four others totaling 130 years in the game Meet with the team and tell them how to implement it.

There’s a reason role players occasionally look like superstars for a week, but I never given a chance to do it for long.

Most of the league can score. These days most anybody who can dribble and shoot can be a playmaker. But if the team doesn’t feel they can do it With you at the head of the attack for years at a time with the other team fully prepared to stop you? They’re probably gonna have you space the floor for the people who can.

Mitchell is going to the Hall of Fame because you can study every shot of his season and he still might give you 50 in the playoffs when you’ve spent three days preparing to stop it.

You could put Colin Sexton on the Lakers right now without LeBron or Luka give him 70 touches And let him do whatever because these games don’t matter…..

He might score 28 or 30 a game till they get back.

and then they will put him where he belongs. In Lukas pocket.

You won’t know who he really is for a long time.

He might be Brunson in disguise. He might be Manu. He might be flip Murray with spacing and 15 more trips down the court. Sometimes you really do have Drazen Petrovic as a role player. But usually? Tim Thomas is just Tim Thomas.

The only thing we can be sure of is we don’t know.

[Xiao Yao You]

I know that id rather have sexton leaving it all on the floor than mitchell resting on the defensive end to the detriment of his club

[FultzNationRISE]

If you take a few games at face value then you obviously can’t limit it to Mitchell. If you are what you are for a week, he isn’t Mitchell. He’s Luka.

The problem is plenty of guys like Flip Murray, Jeremy Lin, And the lake have shown what we already know. Everyone in the NBA is great and most of them spent their entire lives as go to scorers. If you just let them do whatever the hell they want they can put up numbers for a while.

The difference between those guys and the Hall of Fame they can stand in for At times when they’re out It’s over months and years teams figure out what superstars want to do and still can’t do anything about it. You can give Marcus Pfizer the ball and have everyone get the hell out of the way. He would give you 2020 years ago. I had the tremendous pace of these days and the defenses being intentionally weakened On top of everyone being able to shoot, which limits double teams?

That 20 creeps up quite a bit.

But in time they realize You only do two things well They completely take one away and have all five people on the court trained to limit your other one.

So you get guys like flip Murray stand in for Ray Allen for two weeks and I’m on here reading that they should trade Ray Allen for a young big and let flip lead the sonics, Or Chris Paul twist his ankle and we have Darren Collision putting up 20 and 11 while people act like it was a system making Paul an MVP candidate, And Jeremy Lin without Carmelo and with a hobbled Amare out there with unchecked control and an incomplete scouting report getting legitimate TV specials produced.

then you never hear from Flip Murray again Darren Collison turns out to be Darren Collison. Jeremy Lin gets a contract with the Rockets and turns into David Wesley and we have to watch version 56 of it in this era which is even more friendly to a talented guard allowed sudden ball dominance when the team stars aren’t present to play the kind of game the team actually wants to play.

Long story Medium?

I don’t know what Reeves is, and you don’t either Because a good hundred guys in the league can go crazy under these circumstances.

You won’t know what he is until 90 video scouts have poured over every shot attempt of his season And given the specifics to the appropriate assistant coach who comes up with a plan to either stop it or let him do it to the detriment of the entire team and then that coach and four others totaling 130 years in the game Meet with the team and tell them how to implement it.

There’s a reason role players occasionally look like superstars for a week, but I never given a chance to do it for long.

Most of the league can score. These days most anybody who can dribble and shoot can be a playmaker. But if the team doesn’t feel they can do it With you at the head of the attack for years at a time with the other team fully prepared to stop you? They’re probably gonna have you space the floor for the people who can.

Mitchell is going to the Hall of Fame because you can study every shot of his season and he still might give you 50 in the playoffs when you’ve spent three days preparing to stop it.

You could put Colin Sexton on the Lakers right now without LeBron or Luka give him 70 touches And let him do whatever because these games don’t matter…..

He might score 28 or 30 a game till they get back.

and then they will put him where he belongs. In Lukas pocket.

You won’t know who he really is for a long time.

He might be Brunson in disguise. He might be Manu. He might be flip Murray with spacing and 15 more trips down the court. Sometimes you really do have Drazen Petrovic as a role player. But usually? Tim Thomas is just Tim Thomas.

The only thing we can be sure of is we don’t know.

These are fair points but maybe the reason guys like Flip Murray or Darren Collison or Lin eventually go back to being regular guys is because when the starter comes back their opportunity ends. Maybe it's not because they cant sustain it, but they dont get the same runway as the higher profile guys. And thats my point. A lot of guys in this league can provide what Donovan Mitchell provides for a fraction of the cost, they just never get to prove it because lottery picks get greenlights and endless opportunities to play thru their slumps, and other guys dont. If Lebron and Luka dont get hurt, everyone one would still be saying "Reaves cant carry the scoring like that." Nobody would know if the other guys never get hurt.

So my point is it's crazy to me people thinks guys like Mitchell and Bradley Beal are special, and somehow doing things half the league couldnt do if they had 200 million invested in them and 25 shots a game. That type of player is just not the commodity teams and fans think.

First Jared McCain was a revelation for the Sixers last year and now Edgecombe is doing the same thing. Theyre makin like 10 million combined the next couple years. These guys are gonna keep poppin up. You dont need to break the bank for DeAaron Fox anymore. And we can stop calling that type of player a superstar.

[Kblaze8855]

If you think the Difference between Max players potentially going to the Hall of Fame and 200 other players is being drafted high so someone lets them be a Hall of Famer there are deeper issues to work out with your evaluations.

NBA teams have never given less of a **** who you are. They’re out here straight up dropping top five picks because they don’t fit the plan. Guys who would’ve gotten chance after a chance 30 years ago because a GM and a coach were afraid to look bad end up literally in China before they’re 25.

You’re acting like these guys are cam reddish who can score on anyone but don’t play particularly good team ball.

The people who make the point you’re trying to make are like cam Thomas…

That’s just a scorer who wow definitely good at his one thing isn’t really helping a team do much

And all NBA first team who leads a 60 something win team to a second round loss while he has two injured star teammates missing games really isn’t the same thing.

This is more of the eve media age changing of standards where somebody has a career that has always been known as legendary, but saying reset the standard and act like you somehow been proven garbage if you don’t make some epic playoff run against the odds.

Much better players than Donovan Mitchell have better teams than these calves to considerably worse outcomes.

I personally sat there and watched Moses Malone, who was in his prime and I think younger than Donovan is right now and a three time MVP take a team with Dr. J and three additional All-Stars and get eliminated by a literal crackhead and Bernard King’s little brother.

And that doesn’t even crack the top ten list of undeniably great players with much bigger head scratching losses than anything that has ever happened to Donovan Mitchell.

We just have a gotcha society where incredibly negative people simply predict the failure of everyone as a means of giving themselves a way to be right and often unrelated ways.

I don’t like a lot of people In the game. I’m just gonna say none of them are superstars and wait for the inevitable defeat. I can act like I’m right 10 times a season at least. All you have to do is downplay somebody wait for a loss no matter how it happens or why then you get to be right even if nothing about what Happens supports it.

And in some cases, a fan would do it over and over and utterly disregard being proven wrong like you with Giannis, where you simply make up a reason you’re right anyway.

It’s pretty much always poor evaluation that goes in the face of considerably more informed takes that end up being supported by little but the inevitability of failure.

A dedicated hater looking to disqualify somebody as a superstar or whatever and using the standard you are could kick half the people out of a Hall of Fame. Conservatively half.

It doesn’t matter what some high-end role player and potential future star does on a team that would be absolutely hopeless. If composed the way he’s doing it. I just gave you a couple examples that are easy. I could probably go 30 deep off the top of my head and I think you know me well enough to know I’m not bullshitting.

Some legitimate good player has a good week and people start trying to get deep and question what greatness even is because of the shocking revelation that almost everyone in the NBA is great and would score if you gave them the ball all game with no expectation of winning.

what Ben Gordon might put up right now for a week on a team of 13 role players in a league that wouldn’t blink if he took 15 threes has nothing to do with if somebody going to the Hall of Fame as a star or not.

Teams go out there and score 260 points. Someone has to score them. Yes more people could contribute than the number of them considered superstars. But the superstars are considered it because for years at a time people qualified and interested in preventing it prove in capable.

Teams watch their role players all day every day. They aren’t shocked when a role player can string together baskets when there’s no other option on the court. I’ll listen to a sun Scout point out that in practice Jason Collins was such a good shooter they used him to practice stopping Dirk.

The reason they didn’t just try to make him Dirk is because 10 years of knowing exactly what he’s going to do didn’t help anybody stop him from doing it. And the people who make those decisions found it unlikely Collins could say the same if they try to build an offense around him.

That’s the biggest difference between a Hall of Famer and a good player. Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer even when everyone has a solid plan and personnel in place to stop them.

A good player can look like a Hall of Famer for a little while because nobody cares enough about a good player to dedicate the time to design a defense against them. Especially when they’re just filling in and that iteration of the team won’t even exist in a game that matters.

That’s why you ultimately can’t compare a good player having a good week to a guy like Luka or any other superstar who has good years.

The other teams just don’t care about much about stopping a guy who will not be asked to carry the team when it matters. All you get out of trying to shut down a Reaves led offense is being less prepared to defend a Luka and LeBron one when it matters.

As I said, we don’t really know who he is. And as long as he’s on a team with those two we won’t.

Please excuse me. I’m starting to get funny looks from the woman I told I would help Get the winter clothes bins out of the storage room for. I’m gonna be in Chicago for a couple weeks.

[Kblaze8855]

Now that I see How long that was she had a point. I was probably wandering around for 20 minutes. But you know I don’t really say anything anymore. I probably won’t post again till I come across something interesting next week I can loosely relate to basketball as a means of starting a non-basketball topic on Chicago.

[Full Court]

We've had four full seasons to see Reaves play now. We have a pretty good idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are and what he can do. Yes, he's been living in the shadow of other people, but being a Laker, he's also played on the biggest stage in the NBA. In the '24 season he was top ten in the West backcourt for all star voting. And Lebron's been injured for a lot of games since Reaves joined the Lakers so we have a large sample of what Reaves looks like as the primary scorer.

So yeah, we really do know who he is.

[tpols]

There have been a lot of flash in the pan types who abuse a couple moves and / or cant handle a double team, but AR seems to have the whole package. He can shoot from anywhere on the court, can drive both ways with euro steps and spin moves thrown in, and even his foul bait flop game is pretty good. Hes not a one trick pony like Jeremy Lin aka bomb 3s or drive hard right. He can attack from any angle you leave open.

[Xiao Yao You]

Who will pay him max ?

[Kblaze8855]

We've had four full seasons to see Reaves play now. We have a pretty good idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are and what he can do. Yes, he's been living in the shadow of other people, but being a Laker, he's also played on the biggest stage in the NBA. In the '24 season he was top ten in the West backcourt for all star voting. And Lebron's been injured for a lot of games since Reaves joined the Lakers so we have a large sample of what Reaves looks like as the primary scorer.

So yeah, we really do know who he is.

there isnt a single thing there that tells you what he is as a franchise player. He’s never played a single game in his career as a leader where the other team gives a shit if he’s scoring any of 115 120 points everybody gives up these days. He’s on a team with people who are actually game planned against. Without them his team will be a bottom feeder. Teams don’t care what the other Guys can do when stars are missing and the team is no longer a threat. The Lakers without LeBron and Luka might as well be the Wizards. Built as they are, they would not be in the playoffs and teams do not have to take them seriously.

players like and worse than him have left good teams to be first options and been productive and irrelevant. You probably don’t know who Tony Campbell is, but he left the Lakers to go to the expansion Timberwolves and scored like 23 points a game. This is a six point per game player who given his own team, started scoring the same as Clyde Drexler in his prime.

So the issue isn’t what Reeves could do on a dog shit team like the Lakers would be without the two stars. He’s a good player. He is a good player in a league doing everything it can to handicap defenses while also having 300 shooters making it easy to drive. Of course, he will put up points. But there is nothing to suggest One way or the other if he’s effective because no team has ever had cause to seriously bother with limiting his effectiveness while he’s the best player.

Every time he’s been one in the NBA? If he is the best player on that floor, it’s because the real best players aren’t there and it doesn’t matter. It might loosely matter as in we win or lose this irrelevant game in October but it doesn’t matter enough that the team is building a serious game plan to prevent him from doing anything. Like I said NBA teams don’t care who scores 25 or 30 when they’re gonna give up 115 no matter what.

I’m not saying he’s not a good player. He obviously is. He’s just never been in a situation to find out how effective he would be if the other team didn’t have a reason to consider a night with him leading the attack as a night off.

you don’t find that out because someone misses several games. Not really.

i’m gonna see if I can find a podcast episode. I watched a while back with a former suns and Knicks video scout explaining why it’s so much harder on superstars in games that matter than it is on the other guys. These teams will put a staff of 3 to 5 guys on 16 hour days literally watching every shot of the last two years you took and have them build a program to deny you your five most effective Spots. You just can’t tell when you watch the game because it doesn’t ****ing work.

Every team maintains what’s called a last 50 report on every superstar that is a digital file Every player and coach has access to that shows how you created your last 50 made field goals so they know precisely what the stars are trying to do.

They don’t even look at it for people like Reeves. You request and they have to make one from scratch because nobody gives a shit. I’ll see if I can find it in a minute. It is an interesting insight. You’d probably be amused when they talked about the difference between LeBron‘s last 50 and Kobe‘s last 50. Apparently, it was utterly useless for Kobe because of the variety, but LeBron does like four things. You just can’t do anything about it.

Again…he could be a hall of famer in disguise. He could be just pretty good. There are Jalen Brunson situations. But he was out there winning playoff games in a series where the other team knew they needed those wins because Luka was coming back. And he did came through.

That is a fully dedicated to stop this guy in games that matter situation.

That isn’t opening week 3rd guy taking what he wants on a team that would win 26 games.

so as I said, we really don’t know. It’s entirely possible we won’t know for years. Manu had a whole career and we never really knew. But he was in much tougher spots against teams, who knew what he was trying to do And came through in situations we’ve never seen Reeves be placed.

If I had to bet? I’d say on a team that was hopeless he would be productive enough to raise some eyebrows. But I don’t know if that means he’s today’s version of Kevin Martin who with the increased pace might be scoring 28 or 29 a game instead of 24…or what.

like I said, sometimes your role player is secretly Brunson. They just usually aren’t no matter what they look like when they suddenly get 38 looks against a team that doesn’t care.

The added All-Star votes you get by playing with stars on the Lakers certainly isn’t a factor. AC Green started the damn All-Star game as the Lakers third best player. Karl Malone was so pissed off he went and dropped 61 and then boycotted the All-Star game and wouldn’t show up to come off the bench.

that Laker uniform does A lot for your standing in the league. Especially when you’re playing with stars who get you on TV 40 times a season.

I’m pretty comfortable saying I don’t know yet. Maybe you think you know. I thought I knew quite a few times in the past. I’ve reached my wait-and-see point. I think I’m all out of hot takes.

[Xiao Yao You]

there isnt a single thing there that tells you what he is as a franchise player. He’s never played a single game in his career as a leader where the other team gives a shit if he’s scoring any of 115 120 points everybody gives up these days. He’s on a team with people who are actually game planned against. Without them his team will be a bottom feeder. Teams don’t care what the other Guys can do when stars are missing and the team is no longer a threat. The Lakers without LeBron and Luka might as well be the Wizards. Built as they are, they would not be in the playoffs and teams do not have to take them seriously.

players like and worse than him have left good teams to be first options and been productive and irrelevant. You probably don’t know who Tony Campbell is, but he left the Lakers to go to the expansion Timberwolves and scored like 23 points a game. This is a six point per game player who given his own team, started scoring the same as Clyde Drexler in his prime.

So the issue isn’t what Reeves could do on a dog shit team like the Lakers would be without the two stars. He’s a good player. He is a good player in a league doing everything it can to handicap defenses while also having 300 shooters making it easy to drive. Of course, he will put up points. But there is nothing to suggest One way or the other if he’s effective because no team has ever had cause to seriously bother with limiting his effectiveness while he’s the best player.

Every time he’s been one in the NBA? If he is the best player on that floor, it’s because the real best players aren’t there and it doesn’t matter. It might loosely matter as in we win or lose this irrelevant game in October but it doesn’t matter enough that the team is building a serious game plan to prevent him from doing anything. Like I said NBA teams don’t care who scores 25 or 30 when they’re gonna give up 115 no matter what.

I’m not saying he’s not a good player. He obviously is. He’s just never been in a situation to find out how effective he would be if the other team didn’t have a reason to consider a night with him leading the attack as a night off.

you don’t find that out because someone misses several games. Not really.

i’m gonna see if I can find a podcast episode. I watched a while back with a former suns and Knicks video scout explaining why it’s so much harder on superstars in games that matter than it is on the other guys. These teams will put a staff of 3 to 5 guys on 16 hour days literally watching every shot of the last two years you took and have them build a program to deny you your five most effective Spots. You just can’t tell when you watch the game because it doesn’t ****ing work.

Every team maintains what’s called a last 50 report on every superstar that is a digital file Every player and coach has access to that shows how you created your last 50 made field goals so they know precisely what the stars are trying to do.

They don’t even look at it for people like Reeves. You request and they have to make one from scratch because nobody gives a shit. I’ll see if I can find it in a minute. It is an interesting insight. You’d probably be amused when they talked about the difference between LeBron‘s last 50 and Kobe‘s last 50. Apparently, it was utterly useless for Kobe because of the variety, but LeBron does like four things. You just can’t do anything about it.

Again…he could be a hall of famer in disguise. He could be just pretty good. There are Jalen Brunson situations. But he was out there winning playoff games in a series where the other team knew they needed those wins because Luka was coming back. And he did came through.

That is a fully dedicated to stop this guy in games that matter situation.

That isn’t opening week 3rd guy taking what he wants on a team that would win 26 games.

so as I said, we really don’t know. It’s entirely possible we won’t know for years. Manu had a whole career and we never really knew. But he was in much tougher spots against teams, who knew what he was trying to do And came through in situations we’ve never seen Reeves be placed.

If I had to bet? I’d say on a team that was hopeless he would be productive enough to raise some eyebrows. But I don’t know if that means he’s today’s version of Kevin Martin who with the increased pace might be scoring 28 or 29 a game instead of 24…or what.

like I said, sometimes your role player is secretly Brunson. They just usually aren’t no matter what they look like when they suddenly get 38 looks against a team that doesn’t care.

The added All-Star votes you get by playing with stars on the Lakers certainly isn’t a factor. AC Green started the damn All-Star game as the Lakers third best player. Karl Malone was so pissed off he went and dropped 61 and then boycotted the All-Star game and wouldn’t show up to come off the bench.

that Laker uniform does A lot for your standing in the league. Especially when you’re playing with stars who get you on TV 40 times a season.

I’m pretty comfortable saying I don’t know yet. Maybe you think you know. I thought I knew quite a few times in the past. I’ve reached my wait-and-see point. I think I’m all out of hot takes.

Ac probably their 4th best best player

[Kblaze8855]

There have been a lot of flash in the pan types who abuse a couple moves and / or cant handle a double team, but AR seems to have the whole package. He can shoot from anywhere on the court, can drive both ways with euro steps and spin moves thrown in, and even his foul bait flop game is pretty good. Hes not a one trick pony like Jeremy Lin aka bomb 3s or drive hard right. He can attack from any angle you leave open.

you see a lot missing from this guy, scoring skill, set wise?



Just one game. And not even his best game that week. He’s got floaters in traffic. Off the dribble pull-ups. He could go both ways and finish in traffic. Spot up. Couple games before that he had 31 against a team that only gave up 89 points a game and played at a pace that would be unheard of in recent years. 12 teams have given up more than 120 points a game to start the year. There a teams giving up 129 a night. What do you think that 31 looks like Given the extra possessions and the extra spacing from an additional several shooters on every team?

I’m not kidding when I say I was on here arguing with people who were saying they should just trade Ray Allen. You would turn on SportsCenter and they would be playing that little flip song game over and doing a flip chant showing him light some team up. At least by those standards. Slower game so he wasn’t dropping 40.


sometimes flip Murray actually is Ray Allen. Sometimes he’s Flip Murray. And you never know until there is no Ray Allen to protect him and the other team cares if he’s doing it or not.

The guy is nice. He really is. I just don’t know if he’s Kevin Martin nice or if he’s Luka just because he’s doing Luka numbers for 3-4 games.

In my experience? These guys aren’t actually Luka.

But…sometimes they are.

I don’t think anyone Should be sure enough either way to not need more information yet. I don’t think he’s a flash in the pan. I just don’t know that he’s a fire. There aren’t many fires.

Kevin Martin wasn’t a fire. But I think he would be averaging 28 a game right now. So I’m not sure what to do with that.