Every 2nd option took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, except Pippen

[97 bulls]

Oh so Jordan was the issue? Did Pippen's scoring explode post-MJ in the mid-90s or in the late 90s? Nope. He took what, an extra shot and an extra FT per game without Jordan to average a few more points? You'd think the Bulls would've had him taking 20+ shots a game. Instead Phil didn't even trust him to take the last shot when it mattered in the POs. He wasn't built like that bro.

Jordans not the issue. Its the idiotic logic. The idiot logic that Pippen should've won without Jordan even though the Bulls never replaced Jordan with at least a quality SG. And dont tell me that a rookie Toni Kukoc, Pete Myers, Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington were his replacement. Only a fool would argue that. Would you think a trade that consists the players I mmentioned for a Michael Jordan to be a good trade for the team getting those players?

What's more, is then the very same fools that argue that Pippen should've won in 94 with those players, will then turn around and say that when Jordan had them during the 2nd 3pt, they were garbage. With the logic that Pippen had Grant and Armstrong too. But Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper too. And lets not leave out that Jordan had better versions of Kukoc, Kerr, and Wennington than what Pippen had in 94.

Then we get to the argument that Pippen should've scored more. Why? His scoring wasn't the issue. The lack of talent was. Who was Pippens Pippen? Grant? Grant wasn't the number 2 when the Bulls won the 1st 3 titles. And that was one year where Pippen also had to run the offense, anchor the defense, and be the best scorer. No other player in the history of thr NBA was expected to be that. Even Jordan.

You guys keep harping on Pippens scoring, but it wasn't bad. It was very good. And he only really had 2 years to show what his scoring would be without Jordan. His scoring arch could be something like Grant Hill or Tim Duncan, or Magic Johnson, in their primes, all these players averaged around the same PPG. Duncan and Magic have a combined 10 titles and never coming close to scoring 30ppg. Bill Russell too.

3ball mentioned James Worthy and Penny Hardaway in an earlier post as being better scorers than Pippen. THOSE GUYS NEVER AVERAGED MORE PPG THAN PIPPEN DID!!!!! Look up these guys best scoring seasons. 3ball is relegating these players skillset to 4-7 games. And he really thinks that makes sense. Hes an idiot and troll.

Another point. 3ball argues about Pippens supposed lack of scoring when compared to other number 1s (keep in mind he doesn't compare the number Jordans number 2 guy to other number 2s, he compares him to 1st options), but he refuses to acknowledge that Jordan wasn't gonna allow Pippen to put up 25 shots on nights when Pippen had it going. Pippen was torching the Knicks in 93. Jordan shot atrocious for most of the series because he was a bum shooting hand. He still took almost twice as many shots as Pippen did. Pip really should've averaged about 28ppg that series. Vs a great defense to boot. Not the 23 that he averaged.

When I bought up that Jordan took almost twice as many shots as the next two players combined on the Dream Team, his reply is he had to because they needed to blow those teams out by 40. The 96 Dream Team was just as dominant and their shot distribution was much more even. His logic is just dumb. Thats why he stops posting in chats when people really get at him. How many of these types on threads has he made in the past? Why not continue thag conversation? Ive seen him on YouTube as well. I kick his ass there too. Lol

[3ba11]

Jordans not the issue. Its the idiotic logic. The idiot logic that Pippen should've won without Jordan even though the Bulls never replaced Jordan with at least a quality SG. And dont tell me that a rookie Toni Kukoc, Pete Myers, Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington were his replacement. Only a fool would argue that. Would you think a trade that consists the players I mmentioned for a Michael Jordan to be a good trade for the team getting those players?

What's more, is then the very same fools that argue that Pippen should've won in 94 with those players, will then turn around and say that when Jordan had them during the 2nd 3pt, they were garbage. With the logic that Pippen had Grant and Armstrong too. But Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper too. And lets not leave out that Jordan had better versions of Kukoc, Kerr, and Wennington than what Pippen had in 94.

Then we get to the argument that Pippen should've scored more. Why? His scoring wasn't the issue. The lack of talent was. Who was Pippens Pippen? Grant? Grant wasn't the number 2 when the Bulls won the 1st 3 titles. And that was one year where Pippen also had to run the offense, anchor the defense, and be the best scorer. No other player in the history of thr NBA was expected to be that. Even Jordan.

You guys keep harping on Pippens scoring, but it wasn't bad. It was very good. And he only really had 2 years to show what his scoring would be without Jordan. His scoring arch could be something like Grant Hill or Tim Duncan, or Magic Johnson, in their primes, all these players averaged around the same PPG. Duncan and Magic have a combined 10 titles and never coming close to scoring 30ppg. Bill Russell too.

3ball mentioned James Worthy and Penny Hardaway in an earlier post as being better scorers than Pippen. THOSE GUYS NEVER AVERAGED MORE PPG THAN PIPPEN DID!!!!! Look up these guys best scoring seasons. 3ball is relegating these players skillset to 4-7 games. And he really thinks that makes sense. Hes an idiot and troll.

Another point. 3ball argues about Pippens supposed lack of scoring when compared to other number 1s (keep in mind he doesn't compare the number Jordans number 2 guy to other number 2s, he compares him to 1st options), but he refuses to acknowledge that Jordan wasn't gonna allow Pippen to put up 25 shots on nights when Pippen had it going. Pippen was torching the Knicks in 93. Jordan shot atrocious for most of the series because he was a bum shooting hand. He still took almost twice as many shots as Pippen did. Pip really should've averaged about 28ppg that series. Vs a great defense to boot. Not the 23 that he averaged.

When I bought up that Jordan took almost twice as many shots as the next two players combined on the Dream Team, his reply is he had to because they needed to blow those teams out by 40. The 96 Dream Team was just as dominant and their shot distribution was much more even. His logic is just dumb. Thats why he stops posting in chats when people really get at him. How many of these types on threads has he made in the past? Why not continue thag conversation? Ive seen him on YouTube as well. I kick his ass there too. Lol

pippen should've won without Jordan because he signed a massive contract to play with Hakeem and Barkley, but later admitted to Rachel Nichols that he wasn't capable of providing the spacing they needed - he literally compares himself to a bad Westbrick fit (here) - he blames himself for the Houston failure.. Then he lost a 17 point 4th quarter lead in Game 7 of the 2000 WCF to miss the Finals vs Indiana - so even with the Finals handed to him, he finds a way to screw it up..

Btw, the triangle is infact a dogshit pathetic offense that requires too many bailouts from the 1st option, thereby requiring the goat scoring load and the most top heavy offense ever... So a piddly dunker and system player like Pippen could never get anywhere near winning a title as 1st option in the triangle.. Did you know that he averaged 3.0 ppg on 20% in the 4th of the 94' ECSF (and choked MANY times in that series)

Again, Pippen would never have been a 1st option if MJ didn't suddenly retire, while other sidekicks were frequently 1st options for many seasons - their superior ability/status as a 1st option is why they could takeover a series from the 2nd option spot and Pippen couldn't (carried in every series).

Essentially, Pippen was the only career 2nd option, while other sidekicks like Worthy, KJ, Penny, Dumars, Payton/Kemp, Larry Johnson/Zo, or Mashburn were 1st options for many years and often considered 1st options in general... And considering that they weren't handed the goat dynasty like Pippen was, their teams did much better than the 94' and 95' Bulls..

[97 bulls]

pippen should've won without Jordan because he signed a massive contract to play with Hakeem and Barkley, but later admitted to Rachel Nichols that he wasn't capable of providing the spacing they needed - he literally compares himself to a bad Westbrick fit (here) - he blames himself for the Houston failure.. Then he lost a 17 point 4th quarter lead in Game 7 of the 2000 WCF to miss the Finals vs Indiana - so even with the Finals handed to him, he finds a way to screw it up..

Btw, the triangle is infact a dogshit pathetic offense that requires too many bailouts from the 1st option, thereby requiring the goat scoring load and the most top heavy offense ever... So a piddly dunker and system player like Pippen could never get anywhere near winning a title as 1st option in the triangle.. Did you know that he averaged 3.0 ppg on 20% in the 4th of the 94' ECSF (and choked MANY times in that series)

Again, Pippen would never have been a 1st option if MJ didn't suddenly retire, while other sidekicks were frequently 1st options for many seasons - their superior ability/status as a 1st option is why they could takeover a series from the 2nd option spot and Pippen couldn't (carried in every series).

Essentially, Pippen was the only career 2nd option, while other sidekicks like Worthy, KJ, Penny, Dumars, Payton/Kemp, Larry Johnson/Zo, or Mashburn were 1st options for many years and often considered 1st options in general... And considering that they weren't handed the goat dynasty like Pippen was, their teams did much better than the 94' and 95' Bulls..

Either you don't know basketball or you're a troll. What Pippen said to Rachel Nichols is nowhere near what youre making it. He never said he was the reason the Rockets didnt win. He said the Rockets didnt cater to his strengths. Hes not 3 and D player. Why not put Olajuwan out at the 3pt line? Or Barkely? Why would they sign Pippen to that massive contract and then make him just a 3pt shooter. The one time they gave him the ball in his favorite spots, he dropped 37 in their only win vs the Lakers.

None of the players mentioned were better scorers than Pippen. You cherrypicking a quarter or a shot isnt gonna change that. Like I can't go and pick out a game or a play or a quarter where Pippen was on fire. Again, youre arguments are nonsensical.

[ImKobe]

Jordans not the issue. Its the idiotic logic. The idiot logic that Pippen should've won without Jordan even though the Bulls never replaced Jordan with at least a quality SG. And dont tell me that a rookie Toni Kukoc, Pete Myers, Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington were his replacement. Only a fool would argue that. Would you think a trade that consists the players I mmentioned for a Michael Jordan to be a good trade for the team getting those players?

What's more, is then the very same fools that argue that Pippen should've won in 94 with those players, will then turn around and say that when Jordan had them during the 2nd 3pt, they were garbage. With the logic that Pippen had Grant and Armstrong too. But Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper too. And lets not leave out that Jordan had better versions of Kukoc, Kerr, and Wennington than what Pippen had in 94.

Then we get to the argument that Pippen should've scored more. Why? His scoring wasn't the issue. The lack of talent was. Who was Pippens Pippen? Grant? Grant wasn't the number 2 when the Bulls won the 1st 3 titles. And that was one year where Pippen also had to run the offense, anchor the defense, and be the best scorer. No other player in the history of thr NBA was expected to be that. Even Jordan.

You guys keep harping on Pippens scoring, but it wasn't bad. It was very good. And he only really had 2 years to show what his scoring would be without Jordan. His scoring arch could be something like Grant Hill or Tim Duncan, or Magic Johnson, in their primes, all these players averaged around the same PPG. Duncan and Magic have a combined 10 titles and never coming close to scoring 30ppg. Bill Russell too.

3ball mentioned James Worthy and Penny Hardaway in an earlier post as being better scorers than Pippen. THOSE GUYS NEVER AVERAGED MORE PPG THAN PIPPEN DID!!!!! Look up these guys best scoring seasons. 3ball is relegating these players skillset to 4-7 games. And he really thinks that makes sense. Hes an idiot and troll.

Another point. 3ball argues about Pippens supposed lack of scoring when compared to other number 1s (keep in mind he doesn't compare the number Jordans number 2 guy to other number 2s, he compares him to 1st options), but he refuses to acknowledge that Jordan wasn't gonna allow Pippen to put up 25 shots on nights when Pippen had it going. Pippen was torching the Knicks in 93. Jordan shot atrocious for most of the series because he was a bum shooting hand. He still took almost twice as many shots as Pippen did. Pip really should've averaged about 28ppg that series. Vs a great defense to boot. Not the 23 that he averaged.

When I bought up that Jordan took almost twice as many shots as the next two players combined on the Dream Team, his reply is he had to because they needed to blow those teams out by 40. The 96 Dream Team was just as dominant and their shot distribution was much more even. His logic is just dumb. Thats why he stops posting in chats when people really get at him. How many of these types on threads has he made in the past? Why not continue thag conversation? Ive seen him on YouTube as well. I kick his ass there too. Lol

I was just going against the point that Pippen could've scored way more if they set him up for it. He had the chance to do it without MJ while he was in the middle of his prime in '94 and '95 and he wasn't able to elevate his scoring beyond a few points a game, and it's not like the Bulls didn't need it. '94 ECSF against the Knicks was his career-high in FGA for any Playoff series and he struggled and didn't score over 25 in any of the games.

It's not about "allowing" Pippen to take more shots, he just wasn't a reliable scoring option on a consistent basis beyond the 18-22 a game that he provided and that's fine. He wasn't a great shooter so for the era he played in and with the pace the Bulls played at there was no damn way he was gonna average 28 a night.

[97 bulls]

I was just going against the point that Pippen could've scored way more if they set him up for it. He had the chance to do it without MJ while he was in the middle of his prime in '94 and '95 and he wasn't able to elevate his scoring beyond a few points a game, and it's not like the Bulls didn't need it. '94 ECSF against the Knicks was his career-high in FGA for any Playoff series and he struggled and didn't score over 25 in any of the games.

It's not about "allowing" Pippen to take more shots, he just wasn't a reliable scoring option on a consistent basis beyond the 18-22 a game that he provided and that's fine. He wasn't a great shooter so for the era he played in and with the pace the Bulls played at there was no damn way he was gonna average 28 a night.

Of course the Bulls would've had to changed the offense of it was about getting Pippen to score more points. But thats not Pippens game. And if he just decided to start playing outside the offense to score more, the Bulls success overall would suffer.

You say what the Bulls needed from Pippen. Think about it. They also needed Pippen to run the offense, anchor the defense, help rebound, while being the teams only scorer. Thats alot of energy. And he, unlike Jordan, and many other alltime greats, didnt have another player that could take up the slack. I keep asking, who was Pippens Pippen? You can't say Grant. Grant was the Bulls number 3 guy. How good could Jordan be if you guys expected Pippen and the Bulls to win without him, and no decent replacement. Youre undermining Jordans contributions. Then in 95, the Bulls lost Grant, who was the 3rd best player on the 1st 3pt. So now you lost the GOAT in Jordan and the 3rd best player in Grant. Again the Bulls dont go out and sign a quality PF to take Grants place. They signed Ron Harper, but he had a hard time adjusting to playing in that offense. Harper was more of an open court type player. They started Larry Krystowiak for almost 20 games, he sucked, they settled in on Toni Kukoc, but hes not a power forward. Hes more like a guard. The Bulls best interior presence was probably Will Perdue and Luc Longley. Lol.

[97 bulls]

Just so we're clear. The Bulls didnt need Pippen to bump his points up to 28ppg a night, they needed another player around his caliber. If Pippen decides to go out and just shot jack, he scores more points, on less efficiency, the Bulls dont win 55 games, they probably win 45. Because Pippen now has to use more energy to score. I think thats counter productive.

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen would never have been a 1st option if MJ didn't suddenly retire, while other sidekicks were frequently 1st options for many seasons - their superior ability/status as a 1st option is why they could takeover a series from the 2nd option spot and Pippen couldn't (carried in every series).

Essentially, Pippen was the only career 2nd option, while other sidekicks like Worthy, KJ, Penny, Dumars, and Payton/Kemp were 1st options for many years and often considered 1st options in general... And considering that they weren't handed the goat dynasty like Pippen was, their teams did much better than the 94' and 95' Bulls..

Ultimately, the 55 wins fits the definition of a fluke because the Bulls proved in 95' that they weren't a "real" 50 win team that could win 50 every year, while Pippen was gifted the team and couldn't build a 50 win team from scratch (not a franchise player) - so they were the flukiest 50 win team ever with unprecedented circumstances..

Accordingly, the 94' and 95' Bulls are a low bar for a 1st option that most sidekicks met when they were 1st option.. Payton won 61 games in 98' after Kemp left and was 3rd for MVP.. Meanwhile, Kemp was a great 1st option for the Cavs since he carried the non-all-star version of Zydrunas to the 98' playoffs, while Lebron was lottery with all-star Zydrunas in 05'.. Zydrunas was the sidekick both times... Furthermore, Kemp averaged 26 on 48% against the 98' Pacers in those playoffs, compared to 16 on 39% for Pippen.. Payton and Kemp also destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.

Furthermore, Worthy won titles as 1st option, while guys like KJ, Dumars, Kemp and Penny produced 47-53 win teams as 1st option despite not inheriting the goat dynasty like Pippen did.. All these guys were better scorers than Pippen and none of them embarrassed themselves in clutch-time by sitting out, or having migraines, or losing 17 p the lead in the 4th quarter... Accordingly, in addition to being the only sidekick that never took over the 1st option role in a series (carried in every series), Pippen is the only sidekick with many historic chokes

Of course he wouldn't have ever been a 1st option next to Mj, its proven that Mj could only play being the center of attention....you know the exact same shit you scrutinize Lebron for? Who could ever be considered a 1st option playing next to a guy taking 28 shots a game? Really?The wizards years showed us he didn't know when enough was enough and couldn't even make the playoffs with a scorer like Stackhouse or even Rip Hamilton next to him. Only Scottie ever was truly able to thrive next to him and he knew that. You should too.

What season was Worhty ever a 1st option? He played with Kareem and Magic. Dumars was not the 1st option on the Pistons Zeke was. Kj was a 1st option and he did ok, topped out at 7th in mvp voting. Not quite like finishing 3rd. Kemp and Payton were near equal partner in Seattle and shared almost an even load with Schrempf some years. They were a well balanced team with everyone getting shots and if you had to pick a 1st option its probably GP. Penny is the only guy to do as well as Scottie did he actually had a 3rd place mvp finish as a sidekick. McHale had a 4th place finish next to Bird. These are 2 guys id put with Scottie in the 80s-90s era as sidekicks and Penny's was very short lived. But you're stuck on supposedly being 1st option for a series lolol. Theres no such thing. Those guys had a good series, that doesn't make them 1st option lol. Weird shit.

[BarberSchool]

Pippen didn’t have the offensive skill TO take over a series.

PiP was a huge benefactor of Mike’s greatness commanding doubles,
In an era where you couldn’t cheat over defensively.
You had to fully commit to the double, full stop.

Pippen’s overrating of himself, and fans overrating of him, occurs mostly with:
Disingenuous Jordan-haters.
People who think his AIR max uptempo is the GOAT pair.

[BarberSchool]

what season was worhty ever a 1st option? He played with kareem and magic. Dumars was not the 1st option on the pistons zeke was. Kj was a 1st option and he did ok, topped out at 7th in mvp voting. Not quite like finishing 3rd. Those guys had a good series, that doesn't make them 1st option lol. Weird shit.

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